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errolston Profile
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Ex 97 2E

Registered: 07-2003
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Bolton - King of Genomics?


Does anyone else look at the pedigree of some of the most influential bulls of the moment and think...really?

I mean, Montross, Mogul x Bolton x Rolex; or Pety Modesty, Mogul Pety (Mogul x Explode, therefore double Bolton)x Superire x Bolton x Rolex.

Bolton's proof today includes the following figures:
Calving Ease 11.2
Productive Life -0.5
Somatic cell count 3.07
Daughter pregnancy rate -4.0

Is it really likely that a bull with these figures can appear multiple times in a bull's pedigree and yet have no influence?

For me, a good example of what I am talking about is Sandy-Valley Saloon. Iota x Planet x Bolton x Forbidden. He is a great production and type bull, but his health traits follow his pedigree.

Last edited by errolston, 17/2/2018, 20:15
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AHVP Profile
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EX92

Registered: 07-2012
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Yes, and that's quite worrying if you ask me. Bolton is out of a Luke x Mascot cross and Mogul is out of of a double Luke x Mascot cross and both bulls are well known as breed changers in the worst way possible.

I had high hopes for genomics to highlight good bulls like Zade, Gibor and co. and here is what we've got now... a double Luke x Mascot. Go figure...
21/2/2018, 0:04 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
errolston Profile
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


There was breeders roundtable interview in Holstein International a couple of years ago with some high profile genomic breeders.

In that series of questions Sandy-Valley said they found that the genomic figures for Somatic Cell Count, daughter fertility and calving ease were so unreliable that they preferred to study bulls' pedigrees to estimate what they were going to transmit for these traits.

Sandy-Valley also said in that interview that if they ran a commercial dairy that they would only use proven bulls.

That told me all I need to know about genomics.
21/2/2018, 18:26 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
smous Profile
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Location: South Africa
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


What a crock Errolston, are you still questioning genomics? How long ago was that round table?

Sold thousands of doses of Fairfax, Mookie, Trenton and Equinox as genomic bulls. Look where they are now. Milk to me seems to be the most variable trait.

Granted our early forays trying to find outcrosses had less than stellar results, but the specific traits were were focused on, butterfat percent and PL and DPR all held up. It was milk that dropped us, and they were marginal milk bulls anyway.

---
WWS-SA
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Burnleigh Profile
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EX90

Registered: 09-2008
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Re:


Any commercial breeder that is using genetics from the north american system that isn't embracing genomics is kidding themselves. We are in Australia and our domestic genomics are very unreliable due to size of data set but I strongly recommend to any farmer that asks (that are using N American genetics) that they use 100% genomic sires. 3-4 yrs ago it wasn't the same but there are far less duds in the system now than there were in the 1st crop proven bull list pre-genomics. Added to this the commercials priced genomic bulls are that far ahead of the commercially priced proven bulls that they can afford to loose as much as 15% and still be ahead.
25/2/2018, 3:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
errolston Profile
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


I am not totally anti-genomics but I do think that there are some influential sires of sons that seem to me to be obviously very poor on some health traits.

Don't get me wrong that I think there are some great bulls that have emerged in the last few years; Supersire, Bookem, Shamrock, Uno and Epic are all heavy weights in my opinion.

My problem is mostly with Mogul and some of his descendants, particularly as I said above, Montross, Jedi and Pety Modesty.

Also, the cross of Planet with Robust and/or Mogul worries me for poor Somatic Cells.
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KINGMAMBO Profile
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Ex97
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Because a bull contains Bolton many times like Modesty he is automatically rejected as no good even though his health traits are more positive than many other bulls including sons from Bolton lines.

I think peoples way of judging genetics to there true worth is probably the reason we have very few sire lines today.A bull like Modesty that has many lines of Bolton and has great health traits is a far better bull genetically than many other bulls on the market place.





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allbull Profile
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GP81

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Re:


Genomics should not be blamed for Mogul and his descendants. I believe the AI studs should be, as they put to much emphasis on High TPI and NM$, instead of looking for a more balanced animal with less extremes to hit the high number.
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bazza20 Profile
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Re:


quote:

allbull wrote:

Genomics should not be blamed for Mogul and his descendants. I believe the AI studs should be, as they put to much emphasis on High TPI and NM$, instead of looking for a more balanced animal with less extremes to hit the high number.




AI studs can only produce what will sell, they are not a charity. Farmers won’t buy the outcross at 300+ tpi points lower than the equivalent .
3/3/2018, 9:12 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
errolston Profile
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Smous, You really believe that genomics can accurately predict health traits?

I think it takes time to truly evaluate the health traits of a bull. Take Mogul, he is now minus on both fertility and Somatic cell count. That has not always been the case with his proof. Now, years later, we find out he wasn't quite the bull we thought he was.

It will be the same with a lot of bulls. They appear to hold their proofs initially. Everyone moves on and never looks back. But if you take the time to study proofs down the line you often discover a lot of these bulls turn out not to as good as they were originally thought to be.

Which is why I am still sceptical about genomics.

I used Mogul and Cogent Twist at the same time. Mogul the genomic hotshot and an old fashioned second crop bull in Twist. Today their PLI (UK index) are the same. Did I fall behind genetically with my Twist daughters? My Moguls are terrible for mastitis and daughter fertility (much like Boltons!), although admittedly they have nice udders and milk well. He doesn't feel like a massive genetic leap forward.

Last edited by errolston, 3/3/2018, 14:14
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