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bazza20 Profile
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Ex 97 2E

Registered: 07-2009
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Re: Freddie


I was calving cows to McCormic and Wizard at the same time as Freddie and they were all calving before there due date as most calving ease bulls do but the Freddies were going way over. Got another batch of cows to calve on the same date and the same thing is happening.


26/3/2011, 20:01 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
PADairymen Profile
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Freddie


Are they all bulls by Freddie? I can see bull calves going over their due date. Maybe he has longer gestations. Gibson did that, and some other monster size calving ease bulls. You'd think Freddie wouldn't do that though. Although I have no personal experience. To be honest, Freddie scares me - I could handle Super, he has a nice balanced proof in my opinion, but Freddie worries me.
26/3/2011, 23:41 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
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Re: Freddie


Well, I'm getting almost all heifer calves by Freddie so it balances out.

PAD, I wouldn't think Freddie would be your style. If his proof holds he'd be about perfect for what I look for.

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27/3/2011, 0:09 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
bazza20 Profile
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Freddie


quote:

PADairymen wrote:

Are they all bulls by Freddie? I can see bull calves going over their due date. Maybe he has longer gestations. Gibson did that, and some other monster size calving ease bulls. You'd think Freddie wouldn't do that though. Although I have no personal experience. To be honest, Freddie scares me - I could handle Super, he has a nice balanced proof in my opinion, but Freddie worries me.



Is it the great PL, dpr, production, or scc that worries you about Freddie. Lol.

Pad ive had most bulls but not all. But like I said other CE bulls im using at the moment mccromick and wizard start calving 2 weeks before there due date and are pretty much all calved by the due date. Not sure if long gestation is a trait of Freddie or just by chance here.

Despite the bad luck I've had I love the calves so far. They are great to raise, strong agressive calves.

I'm still planning on getting a few hundred more Freddie if his proof holds.
27/3/2011, 3:07 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Freddie


Actually, bazza, his great PL does worry me. It seems too good to be true for PL. He's got almost a full point on the next bull down the list. If it holds great, but it just seems too good to be true.

I know how PL is measured when a bull has a lot of daughters, they can just use the daughter's longevity to determine it. However, I am wondering if anyone knows how they are measuring it when a bull has few to no daughters. What genomics are they looking at? I've been told that they are automatically assuming that a bull that sires tall and dairy daughters has a lower PL. Are they using type genomics as part of PL genomics to determine PL, even if a bull that sires tall, dairy also sires PL? So theortically, they could be penalizing a bull that does sire PL and tall, dairy cows. I guess I should be saying body size, not just tall.

My other concern currently with genomics is that they are looking at certain genes - and if they worked great the first time, then genomics automatically assumes they will work great the next time (or next generation). So genomics keeps looking for the same genes and gene combinations to determine the good bulls - well how will we ever find a good outcross bull? Outcross bulls do not have the same genes or gene combinations - they have different genes thus making them outcross - so a geneticist told me that when genomics identifies different genes and has nothing to compare them to in the past - they assume they are average. So good outcross bulls are penalized, and bad outcross bulls are given a boost - because genomics doesn't know how to handle a different set of genes since those genes have nothing to compare to in the past. How many bull studs are going to hold on to an average genomic bull, even if its outcross blood? Not many. We are accelerating inbreeding in a bad way. I've come to the conclusion that genomics is just a glorified sire stack - because all it is doing is looking for the same good genes over and over so a Ramos X Oman X Diehard has a better chance of having a better genomic PL than something completely outcross because genomics doesn't know what to do with outcross genes. Which isn't going to help PL in the long run if we inbreed excessively. What its good at is selecting the best bull out of the same sire stack (so flush mates) - but while it selects the best genes, it always selects the same genes -which is arguably not a good thing.

Ok not sure why I went on that rant. Just today's thoughts.

27/3/2011, 13:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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EX93

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Re: Freddie


quote:

PADairymen wrote:


Ok not sure why I went on that rant. Just today's thoughts.




I can't wait for tomorrows rant! Just kidding.

To the topic, I always assumed for a proven bull with or without a large number of daughters that they went of off surviving daughters. Because we all know that if we calve 50 to 100 heifers not all will be around after a few months due to calving problems, mastitis, mobility issues, and maybe reproduction. Sure that wouldn't be as accurate as a bull with older daughters but it's a start. Again that's what I assumed.
27/3/2011, 17:04 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
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Re: Freddie


I agree with your point on genomics PAD. I have heard Ryan Starkenberg (I hope thats spelled right) of ABS repeat the exact same points you just made at a talk once about genomics. I think GotMilkOhio once stated on this board that his Gibbor daughters all genomic tested awful (correct me if I am wrong) maybe due to being from an outcross sire. I know genomics are constantly adjusted based on daughter proofs, but if nobody ever samples outcross bulls due to genomics being to low then how are we really going to find new blood.
27/3/2011, 18:22 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
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Re: Freddie


I generally support genomics, but I do believe PAD makes some good point about potential drawbacks.

As for Freddie's PL, I figure if it does come down some, it will still be elite. With a pedigree like O Man X Die Hard, I hardly have reason to believe that he will drop so far as to be even mediocre.

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27/3/2011, 18:46 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
bazza20 Profile
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Ex 97 2E

Registered: 07-2009
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Re: Freddie


Pad I agree with what your saying about genomics. Still haven't used any genomic bulls. If anything because of seeing how much genomic bulls are deviating when they get a proof I'm using more second crop bulls.

About Freddies PL currently his daughter deviation is exactly the same as his proof. We will just have to wait and see were it ends up.
27/3/2011, 20:06 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
bazza20 Profile
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Ex 97 2E

Registered: 07-2009
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Re: Freddie


Love my Freddie calves at the moment. Had a problem with scours of late but not one Freddie had any troubles. They grow very quick and have a lot of strength about them.
27/5/2011, 13:12 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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