Genetics Australia https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/t14279 Runboard| Genetics Australia en-us Tue, 19 Mar 2024 11:47:34 +0000 Tue, 19 Mar 2024 11:47:34 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443546,from=rss#post443546https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443546,from=rss#post443546www.icbf.com is probably your best bet, bull lists are under the genetic evaluations section This paper is pretty good: http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2016/3887/EBI-and-Cross-breeding-paper.pdf Ignore the bit on crossbreeding if it isn't your bag!! http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Milk-Recording-Potiential-and-explanation-2016.pdf - has some EBI info as well, and a good breakdown of the index (last few pages) http://ihfa.ie/teagasc-national-dairy-conference/ some info on how the EBI is working Hope this is useful nondisclosed_email@example.com (mckeague)Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:25:55 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443545,from=rss#post443545https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443545,from=rss#post443545where can I find an EBI list to have a look at ? And a breakdown of the index pleasenondisclosed_email@example.com (Redmaw)Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:18:15 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443532,from=rss#post443532https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443532,from=rss#post443532In my opinion the EBI is perfectly suited as an index for grazing herds and even for my own herd that can have a five month winter. When it was introduced I was, like 95% of pedigree breeders, a full blown sceptic. Unfortunately I listened, and joined in, with all the naysayers - this will ruin herds, kill milk yield, you can feed for fertility etc. etc. As time went on I noticed that, even though I was breeding for milk production I wasn't selling any more milk to my co-op, my fertility was poor even though cows were well fed so something had to change. I looked deeper into the EBI system and looked at herds that had embraced the EBI. These herds had better fertility, higher milk solids and the improved fertility was delivering more milk. So we started using it and are very happy to date. Fertility is much improved in the herd, calving finished on 2nd May this year, big improvement from 2 years ago when we had June calving cows (a complete waste of time if trying to get milk from grass) All bar 1 cow have been bred back to date, submission rates are super,which would have been unheard of 2 years ago (difficult when we had June calving cows!!!), conception rates are slowly improving. We sold 1,000litres/cow more to the processor in 2015 compared to 2014, with only 200kg more concentrates fed - every cow on the farm was working, no passengers! Protein % was over 3.30% for the first time in 2015, I expect 3.35% this year if grazing season goes well and in two years time I'd expect 3.45% with no drop in litres. So if you want an index to improve milk solids, fertility & to breed a cow suited to grass diets then it ticks all the boxes. nondisclosed_email@example.com (mckeague)Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:39:55 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443523,from=rss#post443523https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443523,from=rss#post443523quote:mckeague wrote: If SanHaven is looking for genetics that work well in a grazing system and have the ability to produce up to 9,000 litres in that system, it might be worth looking at irish genetics... Do you like the EBI system? Would you recommend it as the selection index for grazing herds outside Ireland? nondisclosed_email@example.com (Eryl Vet)Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:24:23 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443522,from=rss#post443522https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443522,from=rss#post443522If SanHaven is looking for genetics that work well in a grazing system and have the ability to produce up to 9,000 litres in that system, it might be worth looking at irish genetics... Disclaimer: I do not sell for or have any affiliation to any of the Irish genetics companies, but I am very happy with the performance of the cows they breed As an aside if the methods of milk recording in Australia are the same as they are here then id take the figures with a very large pinch of salt nondisclosed_email@example.com (mckeague)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 21:54:58 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443519,from=rss#post443519https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443519,from=rss#post443519quote:Craigalea wrote: Baz, please understand that there's certain topics I cannot discuss because of where I do work. The market share data I have seen (not from GAC) is a lot more complex than just x using x bulls because x reason as you suggest. I'm the one that gathers the data for GAC to submit for the reports. Correlation is not the same as causation. Would you rather I compromise my job for sharing things I cant? Side note: you avoid points I make all the time. I was stating facts, not getting excited, you cant base your assumptions off the 5500L figure you quote as those cattle are not in the breeding values. I'm not saying that everyone isn't using Aus genetics because of the exact reason I said but why did people move away from Aus genetics. Not becasue they were happy with the product is a pretty safe bet. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:21:00 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443518,from=rss#post443518https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443518,from=rss#post443518Baz, please understand that there's certain topics I cannot discuss because of where I do work. The market share data I have seen (not from GAC) is a lot more complex than just x using x bulls because x reason as you suggest. I'm the one that gathers the data for GAC to submit for the reports. Correlation is not the same as causation. Would you rather I compromise my job for sharing things I cant? Side note: you avoid points I make all the time. I was stating facts, not getting excited, you cant base your assumptions off the 5500L figure you quote as those cattle are not in the breeding values.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:15:51 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443517,from=rss#post443517https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443517,from=rss#post443517So I was right. 5500 Aus average. Youre not actually getting excited about 7000lt for Holsteins are you. I like how you avoid the other points all the time. Why exactly did everyone move away from Aus genetics. Like I said, I'm not in the minority here. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:03:11 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443516,from=rss#post443516https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443516,from=rss#post443516Lets have more facts then! From the 2015 NHIA report the average for herd recorded cows, all breeds, is 6,979 L @ 3.3 F and 4.0 P Refer here, page 13 onwards. http://www.nhia.org.au/files/Australian%20Dairy%20Herd%20Improvement%20Report%202015.pdf The overall average from Dairy Australia is 5,730L this will be the estimated average including non herd recorded cows (about 40% are herd recorded). Ref: http://www.dairyaustralia.com.au/Markets-and-statistics/Farm-facts/Dairy-at-a-glance.aspx Holstein average, from the NHIA report is at 7,494L @ 3.2%F and 3.85% Protein.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 11:52:57 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443515,from=rss#post443515https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443515,from=rss#post443515quote:Craigalea wrote: You need to do whatever works in your herd. Even Planet hasn't worked in your herd, shit happens, he worked for other people. What matters is that you meet your breeding goal in your way. I could cherry pick herds that experience the opposite to you and use that anecdotal evidence as a rebuttal. But that's a bullshit way to respond when I can put together lots of actual data. I had no idea how those figures I posted would turn out until I checked it. I thought it would run a little lower than it did, so I was surprised when the averages values are almost on par. If it wasn't that result I would have posted it anyway. I have never said Australia didn't need to change it's breeding goal on the APR index. If you read what I have said in the past I agree it did, and yes it was late compared to others. I just don't see why you feel the need to slag off Australian bred bulls any chance you get. I could set my watch by it. Are you going to tell Redmaw he's doing it all wrong? I don't do sales pitches, I'm not a sales rep. Fact are the facts. Aus index only added decent amount health not long ago. Way way behind everyone else. Most aus breeders moved away from Aus genetics. Why is that. Im guessing other are having similar experience to me. I'm giving my experience of Aus genetics. I get better correlation from US proofs in my graizing herd. My explanation is that the Aus production levels are down at 5500lt. So my advise is if you are producing in the 5000lt range maybe give them a look. If higher avoid. I could set my watch by your advertising pitch. Difference being Im breeding and milking cows every day. I'm not getting paid by anyone selling semen. You try and make out I'm the only one in Aus bringing this up. People have spoken with what semen they buy. I'm in the majority here. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 10:39:02 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443514,from=rss#post443514https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443514,from=rss#post443514You need to do whatever works in your herd. Even Planet hasn't worked in your herd, shit happens, he worked for other people. What matters is that you meet your breeding goal in your way. I could cherry pick herds that experience the opposite to you and use that anecdotal evidence as a rebuttal. But that's a bullshit way to respond when I can put together lots of actual data. I had no idea how those figures I posted would turn out until I checked it. I thought it would run a little lower than it did, so I was surprised when the averages values are almost on par. If it wasn't that result I would have posted it anyway. I have never said Australia didn't need to change it's breeding goal on the APR index. If you read what I have said in the past I agree it did, and yes it was late compared to others. I just don't see why you feel the need to slag off Australian bred bulls any chance you get. I could set my watch by it. Are you going to tell Redmaw he's doing it all wrong? I don't do sales pitches, I'm not a sales rep.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 10:19:20 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443513,from=rss#post443513https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443513,from=rss#post443513quote:Craigalea wrote: SanHaven is asking for Pasture based systems with some or limited grain fed, not full TMR/freestall etc Baz, he sent me a PM about it. I'm on a pasture based system and fert of Aus bred cows is disgraceful. I'm assuming he wouldn't mind some grazing farmers actual opinions as opposed to the advertising pitch. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:59:36 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443512,from=rss#post443512https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443512,from=rss#post443512SanHaven is asking for Pasture based systems with some or limited grain fed, not full TMR/freestall etc Baz, he sent me a PM about it.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:57:43 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443511,from=rss#post443511https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443511,from=rss#post443511I will add that the Aus average production is around 5500lt. So maybe the Aussie breed Bulls have good fertility at this production level and craiglea is right. For higher production levels I wouldn't trust the figures. I used the Aussie health king bullbar. Most didn't make it past 2nd lact with fert problems. US genetics on 5500lt are on a starvation diet so fert probably isn't going to be great there. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:52:56 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443510,from=rss#post443510https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443510,from=rss#post443510Aus is way way behind on health breeding. The Aussie index only changed a couple years ago from roughly 70% production based. A good 10 or so years behind the rest of the world. Lol. Even you can't deny this. We were a 100% Aussie genetics herd for years with conception rates flailing around in the low 20% and still dropping. It only turned around when we 100% stopped using Aussie genetics. Look at the Aus indexes own list for top fertility Bulls on the good Bulls guide. It's around 90% international Bulls. If you want health traits don't pick Bulls from a country that has just started breeding for health in the last few years and for all that time tried to mostly avoid overseas genetics. I said it before but Aus is only of the only countries that farmers use more overseas genetics than local product. There is a reason for that. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:45:07 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443508,from=rss#post443508https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443508,from=rss#post443508quote:bazza20 wrote: quote:SanHaven wrote: I guess three that I picked out that look best option to me are medallion, delsanto, christmas I wouldn't touch any of those with a 10 foot pole. Aus is way behind on health traits. 100 being breed average for fertility is actually terrible. Production will be fine but they will take a lot of effort to keep them around. Bullshit. I know you won't care Baz, but I know others like it when I grab the figures, so here they are. Bulls > 1000 daughters milking in Australia fertility proof vs their USA DPR proof. Grouped on standard deviations - 2.3 was the figure I found for USA DPR standard dev, CDCB was erroring out for me so if that's out let me know. 5.2 SD for Australia. It's interesting how the different bulls performed in different environments. It would be worth adding more bulls with 500+ daughters, but I thought I'd start with higher reliability (and an easier quantity of data to put together). I can add more bulls given more time to match up even more data. Thanks to Dan @ STgen for the great website where I can easily grab it. Data is here, if you wish to view/copy it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UGP4C1x32WTIjkCEWJnFOBF0qdJjSadrlVoYYfpoB2s/edit?usp=sharing For the data junkies, this data set y = 0.3446x - 34.313 and R² = 0.5422 so Medallion @ 101 against this data is 0.5 DPR in the US. Please show me your proof of this "100 being breed average for fertility is actually terrible", that doesn't involve anecdotal evidence. I can always put more data together. Edit: Decimal places weren't the same in the image, fixed.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 08:58:40 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443507,from=rss#post443507https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443507,from=rss#post443507quote:SanHaven wrote: I guess three that I picked out that look best option to me are medallion, delsanto, christmas I wouldn't touch any of those with a 10 foot pole. Aus is way behind on health traits. 100 being breed average for fertility is actually terrible. Production will be fine but they will take a lot of effort to keep them around. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 01:51:28 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443506,from=rss#post443506https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443506,from=rss#post443506All 3 are great bulls in my mind. Medallion leaves smaller more robust cows with great udders. The Delsanto's can have slightly deeper udders as 2yrs but geez they pack some milk in and they dont seem to get any worse and as the cows develop out the seem to balance out. I'm not milking any Christmas dgtrs yet, I do have 40 calves by him though and they are just awesome for body depth and front end width ( well all 3 bulls are really ). Id watch the Delsanto on Dtr Fert. The bull I really like at the minute is Buddha will have close to 30 in once they all calved. Can be bit deeper in the udder but geez they know how to work. Check out Wrangler newly proven bull. YES SHAMELESS PLUG ! bred by my father in law. Have 2 milking both well above herd avg. Check out Redmaw Holsteins & Jerseys on FB, Id have some pictures of most of those bulls daugthers on there somewhere.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Redmaw)Thu, 09 Jun 2016 00:49:02 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443494,from=rss#post443494https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443494,from=rss#post443494I guess three that I picked out that look best option to me are medallion, delsanto, christmasnondisclosed_email@example.com (SanHaven)Mon, 06 Jun 2016 02:59:26 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443490,from=rss#post443490https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443490,from=rss#post443490Which bulls would like to know about ? Im in Aust. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Redmaw)Sun, 05 Jun 2016 05:57:18 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443488,from=rss#post443488https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443488,from=rss#post443488Does anyone have daughters milking of GA bulls here in the US now. would like some feed back particularly from grazers if possible. Any updates from anyone anywhere are appreciated though. nondisclosed_email@example.com (SanHaven)Sat, 04 Jun 2016 13:16:13 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441030,from=rss#post441030https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441030,from=rss#post441030There are actually a lot of traits being measured/calculated that aren't published as yet. F&L, body condition, all the stuff mention in the resid survival tech note. I'm not sure why things aren't published.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Wed, 13 May 2015 00:02:43 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441026,from=rss#post441026https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441026,from=rss#post441026How are they calculating those things for res survival when they aren't even measured here. Most of the high survival bulls I look up are negative for res survival. And if it's res survival that counts for the index no wonder it doesn't look right. Seems like it's another thing they try and add to punish overseas bulls. It's better than before but they just can't get it right here. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Tue, 12 May 2015 13:05:58 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441025,from=rss#post441025https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441025,from=rss#post441025quote:bazza20 wrote: Hey craigalea what does the res survival on the new Aussie index mean? I like the changes to the index formula but it seems as if the Aussie index is starting to look very kiwi with some of the additions. IMO a lot of people are going to jump on the health index. Plus it cant be too kiwi, we actually have type included! wait.. did I say that out loud? Survival: is the actual measurement of the cows lasting in the herd. If there is no survival data (i.e. no milking daughters and no genomics available) this is calculated using Likability, type, udder depth, pin set. As always, if you are selecting for longevity, you are better to use well proven bulls. This goes for any countries proofs for PL/longevity. Residual survival is for the other traits that effect survival, but are not reliable enough to have a ABV i.e. lameness, MCE, Metabolic and susceptibility to disease. Residual survival is correlated to survival (of course) by 54% in Holsteins, 57% in Jerseys. The other big ticket items that correlate to the bulk of actual survival are fertility (25%), cell count (7%), production (4%), workabilities (6%), type (4%). Because of the above correlations it's residual survival, not survival, that is is used in the new indexes. Otherwise you would end up effectively double counting traits in the index. i.e. fertility has a big weighting in the new index, survival ends up basically giving it more weight. The actual weighting of resid survival in the new indexes is 8 and a bit points per point in resid survival. i.e. residual survival 110 = 80+ points to bpi/hwi/twi. It gives those non publishable, but important traits for longevity a real say in the index. Side note: There is a problem with the Norwegian Red bulls residual survival in Australia, Norway do not measure longevity at all. No data to interbull = they get really lame figures on conversion. It ends up that those bulls get absolutely hammered on the new indexes purely on the residual survival trait. When there is more of a population of Norwegian reds in Aust most of the issues should go away as there will be real data to measure/more pedigree linkage in Australia.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Tue, 12 May 2015 04:07:37 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441023,from=rss#post441023https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441023,from=rss#post441023don't use American Bison. They are wild animals and their personalities and temperament are such. I have had first hand experience with Bison and they are not the type who like to be worked with/handled regularly. It would be interesting to see them crossed with other cattle but I sure wouldn't want to milk one!nondisclosed_email@example.com (dabble1980)Mon, 11 May 2015 13:50:19 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441022,from=rss#post441022https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441022,from=rss#post441022Hey craigalea what does the res survival on the new Aussie index mean? I like the changes to the index formula but it seems as if the Aussie index is starting to look very kiwi with some of the additions. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Mon, 11 May 2015 09:53:51 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432981,from=rss#post432981https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432981,from=rss#post432981I would be a bit harder: European bison(wisent): First cross = infertile male, fertile female. Either one can be crossed back on to the fertile female to get a fertile 3/4 American Bison: First cross male = sterile First cross female = can be fertile, but is hit and miss. Using the bison bull x domestic cow will have a higher chance of a full term pregnancy too as the domestic bull x bison cow has a high chance of aborting the hybrid. Yaks follow a very similar pattern to the Wisent.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Craigalea)Fri, 23 Aug 2013 01:04:21 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432955,from=rss#post432955https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432955,from=rss#post432955quote:JonnyLungs wrote: quote:smous wrote: quote:Craigalea wrote: I would love to see your herd Jonny, all the colours possible! The United Nations of cattle breeding! Still need to get some Girolando from Brazil Yes you do! And some straight up Gyr as well... or do you have a couple of those? Maybe try bison or water buffalo (because they are more dairy)? I don't know if you can interbreed them with cattle, but it would be cool to see. I'd for sure make the drive down to see it!nondisclosed_email@example.com (drdiederich)Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:59:37 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432931,from=rss#post432931https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432931,from=rss#post432931quote:smous wrote: quote:Craigalea wrote: I would love to see your herd Jonny, all the colours possible! The United Nations of cattle breeding! Still need to get some Girolando from Brazil nondisclosed_email@example.com (JonnyLungs)Wed, 21 Aug 2013 23:49:53 +0000 Re: Genetics Australiahttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432930,from=rss#post432930https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p432930,from=rss#post432930quote:smous wrote: quote:Craigalea wrote: I would love to see your herd Jonny, all the colours possible! The United Nations of cattle breeding!   nondisclosed_email@example.com (JEB12)Wed, 21 Aug 2013 23:39:56 +0000