Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/t14853 Runboard| Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer en-us Thu, 28 Mar 2024 10:50:59 +0000 Thu, 28 Mar 2024 10:50:59 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443923,from=rss#post443923https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443923,from=rss#post443923congratulations. Sanchez makes good, solid cows with great udders. GP83 is a great start for a first calf heifer. Good lucknondisclosed_email@example.com (blackandwhite89)Thu, 20 Apr 2017 20:50:12 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443907,from=rss#post443907https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443907,from=rss#post443907Classified her yesterday for the first time @2-07 GP-83! She is also bred back and due to calve with a 340 day calving interval to Sexed Sanchez!nondisclosed_email@example.com (Escocito)Sun, 09 Apr 2017 12:15:02 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443684,from=rss#post443684https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p443684,from=rss#post443684Calved in on September 1st with a fancy Sanchez heifer calf and looks great...hope to get a picture of her soon. She will definitely be a cow to build on if she develops well.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Escocito)Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:07:11 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442676,from=rss#post442676https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442676,from=rss#post442676Bred her yesterday to Sexed Sanchez, hopefully get a fancy September Calf!nondisclosed_email@example.com (Escocito)Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:48:15 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442380,from=rss#post442380https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442380,from=rss#post442380I have to agree with Kingmambo on inbreeding. Not all Sudan sons are being bred to Man-O-Man though. There's an interesting bull in Semex called Loethe Different.He is a Sudan x Baxter x Mr Sam x Hi Metro. Outcross for what is used today in a way. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Polytechnic Imperial Knight)Fri, 18 Sep 2015 17:47:02 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442369,from=rss#post442369https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442369,from=rss#post442369Looks like she needs a #3 or #1 AAA bull the most. Looking at the age of her pedigree Reality Red looks a good match for her or Bret Les would offer something different.nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:13:24 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442364,from=rss#post442364https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442364,from=rss#post442364Just curious if anyone has any new suggestions on my heifer after the August Proof Round. Here is an updated picture taken yesterday on her birthday. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207573895609309&set=a.4306570266290.183710.1347786391&type=1&theaternondisclosed_email@example.com (Escocito)Sun, 13 Sep 2015 14:01:32 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441942,from=rss#post441942https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441942,from=rss#post441942She isn't bred yet, she is just shy of 11 months old right now. Taking all of these suggestions in and going to look at any new bulls that would be released in the August Proof run before I make my decision.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Escocito)Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:52:17 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441941,from=rss#post441941https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441941,from=rss#post441941So what was the bull you picked in the end?nondisclosed_email@example.com (johnross)Thu, 30 Jul 2015 06:52:51 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441591,from=rss#post441591https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441591,from=rss#post441591quote:KINGMAMBO wrote: The majority of the studs either don't care or are to big to do any sort of a good job of creating what would be called outcross or difference.They are to concerned about marketing / profit or having the #1 Genomic sire of the breed which takes away there focus to produce useful sires with difference.   So if that's the case should some of the blame be placed on the farmer then? Seeing how well some of these genomic bulls sell, isn't that just the studs simply giving farmers what they want? nondisclosed_email@example.com (SPH)Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:19:04 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441590,from=rss#post441590https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441590,from=rss#post441590The majority of the studs either don't care or are to big to do any sort of a good job of creating what would be called outcross or difference.They are to concerned about marketing / profit or having the #1 Genomic sire of the breed which takes away there focus to produce useful sires with difference. There is no problem with close breeding or linebreeding when there is a need for it but at the moment it is being practiced for no other reason than u have no option not to do it and this must be a dangerous venture.Even if the proofs are showing increased fertility this may be down to increased consistency through close breeding using close breeding to Braxton would probably see the fertility go the opposite way through consistency. The biggest problem with fixing Oman or any sire to every bull in stud or the breed could lead to the same product consistently being produced with the same negative and positive traits with virtually no other kind of bull to fix there problems if needed.This would be the danger of consistency when breeding to the same bull like Oman.The studs or breeders should or should have bent over backwards to keep certain lines free of certain bulls to keep certain traits alive instead of mixing them and creating consistency with no extremes. I have been trying to think of another bull that might work with this heifer the only one I can come up with is Toystory Domain he looks like a bull that would tick many boxes.   nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Wed, 08 Jul 2015 05:26:58 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441588,from=rss#post441588https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441588,from=rss#post441588"I love this statement "Ladd is only useful because he is Polled and Red, take that away and what u have is a very average type bull with pathetic production, a complete illusion. Couldn't agree more." You could say that about many bulls. Take the health traits from Oman, and you don't have much left. Take the milk from Bolton. Take the type from Atwood, the list goes on. Personally, I don't care that Ladd is red, him being polled is a bonus though. He sires functional type (sometimes show type, which is evident in some of his daughters, he's done quite well in the R&W heifer shows, and just had a daughter sell for $197,000 - so he can make them quite good), but he also has excellent health traits. His milk proof sucks, but is somewhat made up for with his high components. I would still wager a bet today that his daughters mature late, and milk much more later in life. Regardless, this wasn't about Ladd. This was about breeding against health traits. The comment made about how the health trait bulls were all mated to Oman and now we have inbreeding - not buying that. And even so, those bulls still have high health trait numbers even with inbreeding.nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:31:08 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441587,from=rss#post441587https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441587,from=rss#post441587Creating outcross is for the studs to worry about. For the average dairy farmer there is nothing you can do. I remember not that long ago when KING was posting about how line breeding for health traits works. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:58:01 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441586,from=rss#post441586https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441586,from=rss#post441586There are many other bulls with health traits like the ones u have mentioned not just Oman. The problem is that all these lines are bred straight away to Oman which joins everything together when there is no point to do so why are so many of these fairly unrelated lines joined together at the drop of a hat. If we look at Sudan just about every son is from Man-O-Man daughters which takes away any outcross he may of had were is the logic in this.It would be more interesting to have used Sudan with the best Roylane Champion Champ or P Richman daughters to keep the outcross going or even use Sudan daughters with the Genomic bull Coldsprings Cobra (CM x Jammer x Rudy). Creating outcross is more important than using the best bull or most popular bull in today's world outcross is King. nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Tue, 07 Jul 2015 08:28:54 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441585,from=rss#post441585https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441585,from=rss#post441585I'm sure this guy is thankful he only has 1 holstein heifer to breed now lolnondisclosed_email@example.com (Moorcastle)Tue, 07 Jul 2015 07:15:15 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441583,from=rss#post441583https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441583,from=rss#post441583Only O-Man for health traits? I like him a lot but that's obviously not the exact truth. Over the past decade we've had the likes of Outside, Lynch, Form Bret, Wizard, Zade, Potter and other Manfreds, Ito, Duster and sons, bulls bred from Paradise-R Sears genetics like Die-Hard, Sailor etc, various Mtoto sons, Ramos and Rudolph genes in general and the list goes on. Surely many of these didn't get the chances O-Man received but every now and then their name appears. Do you think we would have Mogul if Dorcy was a Bolton x Morty instead of Dorcy x Bret? I guess the answer is almost obvious. And there are bulls with various kinds of breeding pattern, including high type. Laurie Sheik has produced a few health toppers that are suitable for those looking for more type like Leader or Outside. Just as in the past you had some Hanoverhill bulls able to boost fitness and longevity, you mentioned Victor that I truly respect but count on the same list the likes of Stardom, Lincoln and for those who aren't afraid of CE, Skybuck. Regarding the latter, take a look at Heiz-Acres Skybuck George RC. His type proof is kinda bad looking today (he is 20 years old) but he is an example of typè/pedigree breeding (linebred on Telstar on three generations) combined to health. Regarding the comment on Ladd being useless... the same sentence could suit Quality Ultimate if you replace red and polled by extreme strength. And yes, the old Ultimate is also 2.68 SCS and +4.7 DPR. But other than that? I don't have anything against him in a pedigree if it's done properly like in Pala's family but I bet Ladd could be used the same way in polled pedigrees - for what he can improve, on corrective targeted matings.nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Tue, 07 Jul 2015 06:41:10 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441582,from=rss#post441582https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441582,from=rss#post441582The breed should not give up on fertility and there are quite a few different bulls around with great health traits I just think there could be great potential breeding two breeds together that have high inbreeding on both sides. I just don't know what is more important continuing to use pedigree bloodlines with high inbreeding or to create a hybrid breed that may be better than both sides.The Holstein may have much improved health traits but how can we tell if we are getting the full potential because of the high inbreeding there may be more potential from these health bulls by decreasing the inbreeding percentage. nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Tue, 07 Jul 2015 06:03:13 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441581,from=rss#post441581https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441581,from=rss#post441581I love this statement "Ladd is only useful because he is Polled and Red, take that away and what u have is a very average type bull with pathetic production, a complete illusion. Couldn't agree more.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Blackwalnut)Tue, 07 Jul 2015 05:04:11 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441579,from=rss#post441579https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441579,from=rss#post441579I think there are plenty of Holstein bulls out there that sire health and fertility without having to crossbred. It can be done. You seem to think that the Holstein breed should give up on fertility? We shouldn't bother trying? In the past 10 years, we have already seen a slight up-tick in DPR because of breeding for it - this is noted in the bull proofs and in particular when we have had base changes, you can tell we are making progress as the DPR base has to be adjusted down to reflect genetic gain. I think it is worth breeding for. nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Mon, 06 Jul 2015 18:05:54 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441578,from=rss#post441578https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441578,from=rss#post441578I agree that longevity and fertility are the number one priority but I think the breed has gone to far down the road and is built around poor fertility and longevity bulls to even be considered worthy especially when all the breed has is basically Oman for health traits. The breed could of had many different health trait lines available now if the selection for health traits was the number one priority instead of the continued use of poor health bulls taking away the opportunity's of many other worthwhile bulls that were available in the past. Back in the past a cross that I would of made that was based around longevity and fertility would of been these four. Although these bulls were not perfect they could of had the potential to provide a strong base for longevity and fertility. Horizon Black Gold (PL +2.0 / DPR +2.2)            x Hanoverhill Victor (PL +3.7 / DPR +0.8)            x Puget Sound OVS Envoy (PL +1.7 / DPR +4.3)            x Hurtgen Vue Marathon (PL +0.1 / DPR +4.0) To produce long living cows with great health traits I would say there might more scope and enjoyment using other breeds with the best of the Holstein instead of the same old bloodlines that are only built around poor fertility.Using Oman with the Oman of the Jersey breed sounds a lot more interesting than the continued high inbreeding in the Holstein breed because of the lack of positive health bloodlines. Ladd has made some smart daughters and he could work with the heifer in question I just don't know weather his production is good enough for the majority. A few examples of some of the best Polled bulls that are going to help the Polled progress to the majority because low milk production will not be acceptable in my opinion. Regancrest Milford P A great bull with +1100 for milk +3.9 PL and +1.9 DPR from a super family and his mother is a Snowman he is one of the very best Health bulls that contains Snowman and he is Polled. Kerndtway Eraser P A bull with lots of production with enough type and decent health traits he is available sexed. View Holme Powerball P Awesome Polled sire from the Missy family with high production acceptable type and superb health traits. nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Mon, 06 Jul 2015 17:52:44 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441575,from=rss#post441575https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441575,from=rss#post441575Another thing to note is cows that breed back earlier have a tendency to produce a little less milk, especially if they get pregnant 60 days in milk. nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Mon, 06 Jul 2015 01:38:27 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441573,from=rss#post441573https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441573,from=rss#post441573My point was that you can breed for type without using poor fertility bulls. I'm not trying to say Ladd is the best bull ever - while I think he can make them really nice, I am saying don't breed for the nice looking 2 YR old who doesn't breed back. I actually feel there is more accuracy in the health traits than milk production - for the fact that proofs are mainly based off of 2 yr old records/scores - so if a 2 YR old doesn't breed back, they get slammed, however if they do breed back, it is not surprising that a below average 2 YR for milk could develop into an average or even above average production cow when she matures. I've had it happen before - Boss Iron, Outside, Número Uno?? (We will see on him). I can honestly say though if the numbers for health are poor, it usually shows at young and old age. And to be honest with you, when it comes to show cows they need to breed back more than they need to milk - they just need to look like they milk. But getting them fresh when you want them fresh and getting embryos out of them requires good fertility. nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Mon, 06 Jul 2015 01:35:52 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441567,from=rss#post441567https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441567,from=rss#post441567The studs have limited this breed's health traits with continued use and linebreeding of bulls like Aerostar Chief Luke Mascot Rotate Storm Elton Addison Emory Aaron BW Marshall Morty Bolton all for milk production with no regard for health traits is it any wonder the way things are. Chief is rated at around -3 or -4 for longevity and I will bet any money using him on any cow today will bring a high level of inbreeding because most animals are loaded with Chief is it any wonder cows don't last would the breed be different if the same amount of inbreeding was coming from Bootmaker instead. The only way forward to make fertile long living cows with lower inbreeding is to go the Hybrid route and combine the fertile long living Holstein blood with the same from another breed.The Holstein has been created around poor fertility and longevity and the continued inbreeding to these bloodlines will not help matters.Is it any wonder Morty daughters did not last long with the amount of Chief he contains and to top it off his mother was an Aerostar how many Morty's were linebred back to Chief and Aerostar blood with bad results. I only mentioned Atwood because the original poster said he thought Sanchez might be a great bull for this heifer using this information I believed he may not mind a bull like Atwood who is fully proven and with the cross of Advent x Talent this has show potential there was no mention of longevity or DPR in the original post. Ladd has worse production than Arlinda Rotate who was born 40 years ago why would u pay 200K for a daughter of this bull how many studs will put up with his lack of production he is probably the only bull in history to have sons in stud with his level of production. nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Sun, 05 Jul 2015 15:41:15 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441566,from=rss#post441566https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441566,from=rss#post441566couldn't have put it better myself Big Bird It happened one too many times and we had to make changes, finally starting to see the changes leaving their mark. Improved fertility, less mastitis, healthier cows....and what is more, average classification score has probably increased as cows sticking around longer. Most long lasting cows will end up with a decent classification scorenondisclosed_email@example.com (mckeague)Sat, 04 Jul 2015 22:38:27 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441563,from=rss#post441563https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441563,from=rss#post441563quote:PADairymen wrote: Average is far better than extreme negative fertility. We were type breeders and used poor fertility bulls and regretted it. Other type breeders would agree with that. If you followed Riceton's breeding program somewhere in cow talk he talks about shifting his breeding program from type to cows easier to take care of. Not that it means a lot, but a Ladd daughter sold for $197,000 yesterday... Could you address what to do with the high scoring young cow that doesn't bred back? Or there lack of value? Atwoods health traits will most likely continue to fall - he'll be close to the level of Braxton. As a type breeder I'd definitely agree with this. Today I'd sacrifice quite a bit of type for better management traits, particularly stature which seems to drive a lot of top end type. I certainly wouldn't sacrifice management traits for type. Nothing more frustrating than a great looking milking heifer that won't breed back or is full of mastitis. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Big Bird)Sat, 04 Jul 2015 08:45:04 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441561,from=rss#post441561https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441561,from=rss#post441561Average is far better than extreme negative fertility. We were type breeders and used poor fertility bulls and regretted it. Other type breeders would agree with that. If you followed Riceton's breeding program somewhere in cow talk he talks about shifting his breeding program from type to cows easier to take care of. Not that it means a lot, but a Ladd daughter sold for $197,000 yesterday... Could you address what to do with the high scoring young cow that doesn't bred back? Or there lack of value? Atwoods health traits will most likely continue to fall - he'll be close to the level of Braxton. nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Sat, 04 Jul 2015 02:55:01 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441557,from=rss#post441557https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441557,from=rss#post441557It is the people who bred for milk with no regard for health traits is the reason the Holstein breed is in the state it is it has nothing to do with type or type breeders. If any type breeder has been pushed to use Freddie and bulls like this it has also nothing to do with the type breeder because the type bulls with positive or negative fertility or herd life were never used to provide the type breeder with a high type and a possible high fertility bull.Just about every type bull today are the waste product from production breeding not type breeding although some type bulls were used but the majority were not used. Guthrie and Gold Chip are only average for herd life and fertility Mccutchen is also average for fertility there really is not much difference than using Atwood and Atwood could be used with Shottle Oman Windbrook blood lines if needed unlike the other bulls u mentioned that would probably increase the inbreeding in some cases. nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Fri, 03 Jul 2015 15:16:20 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441552,from=rss#post441552https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441552,from=rss#post441552I'm not really trying to get into a turf war here, but I would be surprised if Ladd didn't sire as much or more strength than Atwood. Atwood is over 4 on dairy form, and I truly believe that just as short cows get inaccurately called frail, very tall cows like Atwood's get overrated on strength. Look at a picture of Ladd's dam on Select's website. Pretty sure with her and September Storm siring the next cow, there is certainly some roundness behind Ladd. I am certainly disappointed in Ladd's milk proof like everyone else. Our first Ladd just calved today, we have 10 more coming, so we will find out.nondisclosed_email@example.com (craethke)Fri, 03 Jul 2015 02:10:45 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441551,from=rss#post441551https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441551,from=rss#post441551"I did not include health traits because it is not important in breeding for show type just like type is not important with health trait breeding." This is the exact reason why the Holstein breed is in the situation it is in - people bred for type without any regard for health. Aside from the investor show herds, this practice has been steadily on the decline. And this is the reason why type breeders have a bad name for infertile cows, and the reason why many have turned to bulls like Oman, Freddie, or crossbreeding. Your way of mating cows based solely off of pedigree with no regard to health traits for type matings is outdated. I bred for type and health traits, it is not challenging. While I don't use the top health trait bulls, I have learned through trial and error from the past 10-20 years that bulls like Talent, Atwood, Aspen, Morty, etc. sire pretty cows that do not bred back well. There is no value in a VG 2 yr old that does not bred back. Same goes for an EX 3 year old, or a show cow for that matter. There is no value in using bulls like Atwood who may sire tremendous type, but do not sire fertility - I can find type bulls similar to Braxton and Atwood but can sire health traits. If Ladd does not sire enough type for this mating (which I doubt is true), then find a bull that does but does not sacrifice health - maybe GoldChip, maybe Guthrie, or even a bull like McCutchen, Kingboy would provide some index as well. There are ways to bred for type, even show type, without sacrificing health. Why sacrifice health when you don't have to? Ladd-P has sired plenty of red heifers doing quite well in the show ring. You can check some of them out on select sire's website if you would like. http://sitefinity.selectsires.com/public/bull-pages?AnimalIdentifier=7HO11163&Language=Eng&Country=USA&version=20150410# I have zero concern over his type. His milk production is most likely a reflection of his daughters being slow developing kind of cows. However, Atwood's DPR is a reflection of his daughters being infertile. Atwood's PL is a reflection of his daughters being infertile and being too tall, narrow, and dairy to handle most freestall environments. Talent is known for his daughter's struggle to breed back, with Talent in the pedigree I would in particular protect for DPR. nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Thu, 02 Jul 2015 23:56:23 +0000 Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heiferhttps://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441549,from=rss#post441549https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441549,from=rss#post441549I did not include health traits because it is not important in breeding for show type just like type is not important with health trait breeding. Ladd is only useful because he is Polled and Red take this away and what have u got a very average type bull with pathetic milk production a complete illusion.They will probably last because they give no milk combining him with Advent will probably produce a complete dry bag with lower type than the Atwood cross and to top it off the resulting heifer may be black and horned a complete waste to be honest and not worth the risk. Atwood has proven himself the world over and it is no mystery how he breeds unlike Ladd who has no strength in his proof and his breeding.He is a Goldwyn male line combined with Lawn Boy his proof reflects his pedigree tall with no strength and low dairy character to boot which is also a waste of the Goldwyn line.If u search for the proven Polled bulls there are non that are worthy of being used with show type pedigrees when there are bulls like Atwood available it is just a stupid illusion to believe u are getting something extra using these bulls but in reality u are probably getting a whole load less for the sake of no horns. nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:00:04 +0000