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Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer


What makes Atwood more frail and worse through the rump than Ladd who is a Destry x Lawn Boy talk about frail with high pins there is no better cross for this than Destry x Lawn Boy.

The heifer has a great rump and there is not a real poor rump bull in her pedigree I would be confident to use a bull like Atwood he may work very well with this heifer.

Fever is interesting being from a Blitz daughter and Advent worked very well with Blitz in creating Advent Asia the mother of Adonis and Awesome combining Goldwyn Blitz and Advent may work well.

 

Last edited by KINGMAMBO, 1/7/2015, 18:07
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Re:


Well looking at Atwood's proof - he is -2.1 for rump angle. Anyone that milks a few Atwood's will know that bull sires high pins - he is quite good at transmitting it as well. Advent's and Talent's had wide rumps, but they weren't sloped that's for sure. Talent being notoriously known for hard breeders - Atwood not being much better.

I don't consider Ladd-P daughters to be frail at all. They need time to develop. There is a difference between needing time to develop and being frail and narrow chest-ed like some Atwood's. Atwood will give you size, but it may not be correct or balanced frames. Ladd doesn't sire as big of frames as Atwood, but they are more balanced, and if you give them time, I believe they will develop into good old cows.
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Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer


If u want to use the proofs then lets compare these bulls

Ladd

138 daughters 93% Rel

PTAT +[sign in to see URL]

Strength +[sign in to see URL]

Body Depth +[sign in to see URL]

Dairy Form +[sign in to see URL]

Rump Side View [sign in to see URL]

Feet & Legs +[sign in to see URL]

Udder +[sign in to see URL]

Body +[sign in to see URL]

Milk -1388

Atwood

7526 Daughters 99% Rel

PTAT +[sign in to see URL]

Strength +[sign in to see URL]

Body Depth +[sign in to see URL]

Dairy Form +[sign in to see URL]

Rump Side View [sign in to see URL]

Feet & Legs +[sign in to see URL]

Udder +[sign in to see URL]

Body +[sign in to see URL]

Milk -79

Atwood is far superior to Ladd in almost every way including his family with Adeen Atlee Alicia Aftershock Atwood Allegro and so many more how can u ignore the sheer potential and reliability of Atwood and his family.











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The sheer potential of Atwood is tall, narrow cows with high pins and poor fertility. It is simple. He is great at transmitting it. I love how you didn't include the health traits in your list...

And to add to my point, Ladd's proof and Atwood's proof are really based off of 2 year olds for type. Classification is mainly performed on young cows - as those cows are the required cows for classification. Atwoods start off big framed, but they are not going to last or develop like Ladd. The difference in health traits prove this point. Atwood's PL has been steadily dropping.

You like to base everything off of the pedigree - especially the sire side. Sometimes the bulls don't read the book. Ladd will sire strength, maybe moderate in size, but cows that will develop and last many years and have great udders - while the Atwoods are open and you can't get them pregnant.

Last edited by PADairymen, 2/7/2015, 15:39
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Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer


I did not include health traits because it is not important in breeding for show type just like type is not important with health trait breeding.

Ladd is only useful because he is Polled and Red take this away and what have u got a very average type bull with pathetic milk production a complete [sign in to see URL] will probably last because they give no milk combining him with Advent will probably produce a complete dry bag with lower type than the Atwood cross and to top it off the resulting heifer may be black and horned a complete waste to be honest and not worth the risk.

Atwood has proven himself the world over and it is no mystery how he breeds unlike Ladd who has no strength in his proof and his [sign in to see URL] is a Goldwyn male line combined with Lawn Boy his proof reflects his pedigree tall with no strength and low dairy character to boot which is also a waste of the Goldwyn [sign in to see URL] u search for the proven Polled bulls there are non that are worthy of being used with show type pedigrees when there are bulls like Atwood available it is just a stupid illusion to believe u are getting something extra using these bulls but in reality u are probably getting a whole load less for the sake of no horns.








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Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer


"I did not include health traits because it is not important in breeding for show type just like type is not important with health trait breeding."

This is the exact reason why the Holstein breed is in the situation it is in - people bred for type without any regard for health. Aside from the investor show herds, this practice has been steadily on the decline. And this is the reason why type breeders have a bad name for infertile cows, and the reason why many have turned to bulls like Oman, Freddie, or crossbreeding. Your way of mating cows based solely off of pedigree with no regard to health traits for type matings is outdated.

I bred for type and health traits, it is not challenging. While I don't use the top health trait bulls, I have learned through trial and error from the past 10-20 years that bulls like Talent, Atwood, Aspen, Morty, etc. sire pretty cows that do not bred back well. There is no value in a VG 2 yr old that does not bred back. Same goes for an EX 3 year old, or a show cow for that matter. There is no value in using bulls like Atwood who may sire tremendous type, but do not sire fertility - I can find type bulls similar to Braxton and Atwood but can sire health traits. If Ladd does not sire enough type for this mating (which I doubt is true), then find a bull that does but does not sacrifice health - maybe GoldChip, maybe Guthrie, or even a bull like McCutchen, Kingboy would provide some index as well. There are ways to bred for type, even show type, without sacrificing health. Why sacrifice health when you don't have to?

Ladd-P has sired plenty of red heifers doing quite well in the show ring. You can check some of them out on select sire's website if you would like.

[url][sign in to see URL]

I have zero concern over his type. His milk production is most likely a reflection of his daughters being slow developing kind of cows. However, Atwood's DPR is a reflection of his daughters being infertile. Atwood's PL is a reflection of his daughters being infertile and being too tall, narrow, and dairy to handle most freestall environments. Talent is known for his daughter's struggle to breed back, with Talent in the pedigree I would in particular protect for DPR.

Last edited by PADairymen, 3/7/2015, 0:05
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Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer


I'm not really trying to get into a turf war here, but I would be surprised if Ladd didn't sire as much or more strength than Atwood. Atwood is over 4 on dairy form, and I truly believe that just as short cows get inaccurately called frail, very tall cows like Atwood's get overrated on strength. Look at a picture of Ladd's dam on Select's website. Pretty sure with her and September Storm siring the next cow, there is certainly some roundness behind Ladd. I am certainly disappointed in Ladd's milk proof like everyone else. Our first Ladd just calved today, we have 10 more coming, so we will find out.
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Re: Mating Suggestions for My Only Holstein Heifer


It is the people who bred for milk with no regard for health traits is the reason the Holstein breed is in the state it is it has nothing to do with type or type breeders.

If any type breeder has been pushed to use Freddie and bulls like this it has also nothing to do with the type breeder because the type bulls with positive or negative fertility or herd life were never used to provide the type breeder with a high type and a possible high fertility [sign in to see URL] about every type bull today are the waste product from production breeding not type breeding although some type bulls were used but the majority were not used.

Guthrie and Gold Chip are only average for herd life and fertility Mccutchen is also average for fertility there really is not much difference than using Atwood and Atwood could be used with Shottle Oman Windbrook blood lines if needed unlike the other bulls u mentioned that would probably increase the inbreeding in some cases.

















Last edited by KINGMAMBO, 3/7/2015, 15:35
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Average is far better than extreme negative fertility. We were type breeders and used poor fertility bulls and regretted it. Other type breeders would agree with that. If you followed Riceton's breeding program somewhere in cow talk he talks about shifting his breeding program from type to cows easier to take care of.

Not that it means a lot, but a Ladd daughter sold for $197,000 yesterday...

Could you address what to do with the high scoring young cow that doesn't bred back? Or there lack of value? Atwoods health traits will most likely continue to fall - he'll be close to the level of Braxton.

Last edited by PADairymen, 4/7/2015, 3:11
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quote:

PADairymen wrote:

Average is far better than extreme negative fertility. We were type breeders and used poor fertility bulls and regretted it. Other type breeders would agree with that. If you followed Riceton's breeding program somewhere in cow talk he talks about shifting his breeding program from type to cows easier to take care of.

Not that it means a lot, but a Ladd daughter sold for $197,000 yesterday...

Could you address what to do with the high scoring young cow that doesn't bred back? Or there lack of value? Atwoods health traits will most likely continue to fall - he'll be close to the level of Braxton.



As a type breeder I'd definitely agree with this. Today I'd sacrifice quite a bit of type for better management traits, particularly stature which seems to drive a lot of top end type. I certainly wouldn't sacrifice management traits for type.

Nothing more frustrating than a great looking milking heifer that won't breed back or is full of mastitis.



Last edited by Big Bird, 4/7/2015, 8:47
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