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EX94
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Re:


Conversions are great entertainment

look up their us data, they are graze maxx bulls
Brewmaster transmits 40kg fat and +[sign in to see URL]% fat, while not being negative in protein and fairly positive on fertility in his uk proof

Grafeeti has always been a farm favourite, medium sized strong cows with good components and fertility, I'm sure there are milking Grafeeti daughters somewhere close to you to view.
23/4/2016, 8:25 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
mckeague Profile
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Ex 97 2E
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The old country of origin line is always trotted out when the conversions don't work to the advantage of the sales team!!!!

If a bull won't leave me daughters with the potential to produce [sign in to see URL]%+ Protein then he ain't going in my tank, the financial losses are too great in a tight market to take a risk and use a bull based on his country of origin proof especially where their base cow is lower on percentages than our base cow

And with all due respect fairly positive for fertility doesn't cut it either

I want a herd of cows that will deliver 550kg of Milk solids (at least 260kgs of this needs to be protein) from no more than 7,500 litres of milk - I don't think either of those bulls are capable of that. (I may be wrong but I'd like to see the proof)

This may seem like low levels of production to some but at the costs of inputs here it works out to be the most profitable option for my farm

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Reproduction drives production
23/4/2016, 22:19 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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EX94
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Both bulls are protein improvers in kg and % if your already averaging high in protein they can't do you any harm. And as for the fertility maybe I fair was said too loosely, as proven bulls they are +4 in the uk, totally acceptable in my opinion. I've used a lot worse than +4, this will make you cringe when I say -17 and have not noticed any major problems getting them pregnant, it's back to the management and environment topic again. Just out of interest what bulls have you used recently that fit you criteria?
24/4/2016, 7:01 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex 97 2E
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The issue is that we aren't averaging high enough in protein as we were traditionally a herd paid on a liquid contract. However we are now on an A+B-C payment system (Protein + Fat - charge to burn off the liquid!!) so we have to breed hard and heavy for F & P %, we don't have a problem with volume for our farm system. with that in mind the two bulls mentioned don't fit the criteria.

Although I have to add, using a bull that won't do any harm just doesn't cut it, surely the goal is to use bulls that will always improve, if my protein is at [sign in to see URL]% or [sign in to see URL]% why stop there, [sign in to see URL]% is worth more, gotta keep driving it on!!!

Recent bulls that fit the criteria will most likely draw confused looks from anyone reading this as they are generally all irish bred bulls, but here ya go:

Oman - stunning fertility, didn't hit the heights with protein but probably more to do with the level our herd was at at the time
Morningview Legend - ok most will know him, and he was our 'tentative steps into breeding for fertility & protein' bull
Mars Uphill - massive protein improvement
Ralma Oman Crest - only have one but a super cow, wish I had more

Castleblagh Odie - just calving in this year, but I like them so far

The bulls below have calves/maidens on the ground:
Mars Allround
Parkduv Magnet
Castleblagh Ruthless
Curra Pluto
Radney Levi 5
Ballinaborta Primo
Longview Reliable
Ballydehob Pat

In the tank this year:
Ballagh Prince Spice
Longview Reliable
Coolnasoon Art
Clochrua Radney Levi
+ KYA (easy calving Angus - getting a lot more cows this year!)
coming soon: Courtmatrix Maximus

The goal is to hold the genetic potential for milk (we do not need to breed for any more milk volume)that's in the herd already but to vastly improve fat, protein & fertility. I can already see that with improved fertility milk sold per cow is increasing.

I think that if we want to increase production (litres) it may be time to stop breeding for it, improved fertility will deliver the extra production

Just out of interest what is the average calving interval for UK cows? - no matter how I try to search it I can't find it.

And while you may not have noticed any problem getting cows in calf with really poor fertility indexes, all the research out there will point to it being a hell of a lot easier to get a cow with good genetics for fertility back in calf to maintain a 365 - 380 day calving interval, than it is with a cow with poor genetics - and in my experience I agree with them

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Reproduction drives production
25/4/2016, 9:12 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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EX94
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I agree with your production drives production statement don't get me wrong. Again I'm just being curious here, but why is Mars allround in your criteria if your wanting to improve kilos and % components? Is it just for his fertility? Quite a milky bull too.
25/4/2016, 15:44 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Yep fair call on Mars Allround, a little lower on the components than the other bulls - again it goes back to a time when we were shaky about moving completely away from type, and he had a pretty solid if not spectacular linear(rarely look at linears anymore).

When we used him he was [sign in to see URL]% for both Fat & Protein and + 257kgs Milk (again on our irish base), though he has slipped a bit since but is still [sign in to see URL] & [sign in to see URL] respectively with a little more milk (+267kgs).

We had also used a bull from the same cow family (Mars Uphill) with excellent results.

And he has a Fertility Sub-Index of €140 which is where I like to see them.

not so many years ago we had a calving interval of 410 days, with a herd of Canadian and American genetics, its down to 375 days now and that is partly down to better genetics for fertility and partly down to being more ruthless and less sentimental.

Feed inputs haven't changed much but milk sold/cow is climbing year on year so I feel we have to stick to the sire selection criteria we are on.

Its also good to have these conversations too, I enjoy the back and forth!!!

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Reproduction drives production
25/4/2016, 16:00 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Keff Profile
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EX90
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Does any Vieuxsaule Flame blood work, like Comestar Loic or Welcome Pataki work in your program?

We've had good conception using sexed semen on heifers though I don't use more because I can't handle too many heifers and the bulls I prefer don't have it, and the Sexed Ultra is supposed to be almost equal to conventional semen now.
25/4/2016, 21:37 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Flame is coming up negative in protein on our conversions, and whether others agree or not I find the conversions pretty accurate.

Loic is interesting as he has a good EBI figure €285 (though what I'm using this year has an average of €362 so he falls a little short, also his milk kgs figure of 578 is just way too high. Too much milk potential that I'm just not interested in trying to get out of them, it doesn't pay to chase litres in an A+B-C payment structure which is coupled with a climate where making 30%+ dry matter forages is extremely difficult and expensive.

I can't find Pataki on our systems here so I can't comment on him.

Don't get me wrong I'll use bulls from anywhere if they can fit the criteria I have, but its just not happening right now

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Reproduction drives production
26/4/2016, 10:16 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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EX90
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Pataki is another flame son, his components are close to what Loics are. I was just curious to see how high they have to be in NA to convert well. I think North American genetics are starting to do a better job at breeding for components and fertility thanks to genomics, but there is a long way to go.
26/4/2016, 13:29 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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FYI Comestar Loic converts to 578kgs Milk, 29kgs Fat, 23kgs Protein, [sign in to see URL]% Fat & [sign in to see URL]% Protein on the irish system - definitely getting closer to what we require & I would agree that they are getting better at breeding for fertility & components, just too much milk volume in the proofs and we get charged for burning off that extra water!!

We can get 49kgs combined f & p from 350kgs milk, so that's what outside genetics have to compete with.

I should add that I don't think the suppliers of these genetics will be too concerned what one little irish dairy farmer feels about their product!! emoticon

Last edited by mckeague, 26/4/2016, 22:22


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Reproduction drives production
26/4/2016, 21:39 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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