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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


To answer your first question, yes.

I think you have a Mogul problem, not a genomics problem. He certainly has less than desirable health traits, but has produced some stellar sons.

Not everyone moves on and never looks back. Who are these people?

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5/3/2018, 8:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


quote:

errolston wrote:

Smous, You really believe that genomics can accurately predict health traits?

I think it takes time to truly evaluate the health traits of a bull. Take Mogul, he is now minus on both fertility and Somatic cell count. That has not always been the case with his proof. Now, years later, we find out he wasn't quite the bull we thought he was.

It will be the same with a lot of bulls. They appear to hold their proofs initially. Everyone moves on and never looks back. But if you take the time to study proofs down the line you often discover a lot of these bulls turn out not to as good as they were originally thought to be.

Which is why I am still sceptical about genomics.

I used Mogul and Cogent Twist at the same time. Mogul the genomic hotshot and an old fashioned second crop bull in Twist. Today their PLI (UK index) are the same. Did I fall behind genetically with my Twist daughters? My Moguls are terrible for mastitis and daughter fertility (much like Boltons!), although admittedly they have nice udders and milk well. He doesn't feel like a massive genetic leap forward.



Genomics can and is predicting heath traits accurately. More accurately than I initially thought it would.

I can’t remember what mogul was but I never used him because the initial health traits were not good enough for me, so they can’t have been great to start with.
6/3/2018, 8:43 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Smous, I can see why you would think that about my opinion on Mogul. Due to the extent Mogul appears in high ranking genomic bulls I feel that Genomics and Mogul are inextricably linked.

When you refer to stellar Mogul sons are you meaning the bulls you mentioned in an earlier post on this thread? If so, I would be interested to have the full names of those bulls as I will check them out.

I have used a Robust son that turned out to be poor for SCC. I cannot 100% say what his original genomic proofs showed but I would have thought it unlikely that I used a poor SCC bull as I try to watch that trait. He was De-Su RB Moonray 11038. He was ranked as clear No.1 on UK PLI in his early career for quite some time, before he crashed totally off the radar.

My point is that health traits proofs for bulls like Planet, Man-O-Man and Mogul have dropped over time. The top genomic families have often had some or all of these bulls in their pedigrees and I just wonder if these bloodlines haven't been overrated.

As an aside, I know that calving ease is an important figure for Smous and Bazza, how have you found those proofs for genomic bulls?
9/3/2018, 15:08 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Stellar Mogul sons: Mr Mogul Delta, EDG Rubicon, Woodcrest Mogul Yoder, Bacon-Hill Montross, Coastal View Mookie. Mookie has done everything we want him to do, huge solids, great udders, excellent feed efficiency despite his low milk. He is still a big seller. Granted none of the above are perfect, but no bull is.

Man O Man flattered to deceive, interestingly the Kiwis and Aussies love him. He has been highly successful as a sire of sons for Genetics Australia.

I have to disagree with you as regards Planet, the bull is amazing as regards PL and Livability, they stick around, even in New Zealand he is great on longevity. He is negative for DPR but not HCR and CCR. His somatics at 3.05 are not ideal but not a train smash. Some of my favourite cows are the Plan daughters, he was one of the earliest genomic bulls sold and they fit our system. He is the Potter of his generation. They will make old bones.

Calving ease? I am very careful with genomic bulls, I want them in the very low 7s, but preferably in the 6s if there is no data. Cant say we have been badly bitten though. We did toss one bull when we got reports of big calves.

Last edited by smous, 11/3/2018, 2:47


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10/3/2018, 9:17 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


If you jump into the proof history on Moonray, it does show a big move on cell count, but most of the movement was before his daughters hit his proof, by the looks.

https://www.stgen.com/sire-directory/dairy-bull-usa.aspx?code=007HO11700&language=english&title=de-su-rb-moonray-11038-et

He was showing up as dead even then below average on SCS in 2014 and 2015, then at the end of 2015 daughters were in his proof. his SCS has moved very little since December 2014.

I am surprised about Man-O-Man too Smous, one of the interesting sons is a bull called Trickin, hes a Man-O-Man x Roumare x Oman.

He has a dual country proof, with 1735 daughters in France. I cant link the actual proof on the website, but if you jump on here: http://idele.fr/services/outils/index-officiels-des-taureaux.html and search Trickin he will pop up.

On his french proof: Good cow fertility, calving interval, locomotion. Very good calving ease on both countries proofs. Looks like rumps and feet and legs are looking pretty ok.

I've got Wrangler calves, another Man-O-Man son, about to hit the ground next month. Short Gest length and calving ease.

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11/3/2018, 0:20 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
smous Profile
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Montross is a Mogul x Bolton as we know. I have said this before, but without genomics we would never had got a bull that is +3024 milk and +2DPR (never mind +2.41UDC and +1.44FLC) and that is based on 3499 milking daughters. Give it awhile and we will similar, with stellar somatics. I am selling two Montross sons, one with 2.80SCS, the other (sadly dead)is +1038 Milk, +2.78SCS, +6.8PL, +5DPR, +1.1 Livability, +2.88UDC and 7%CE.

The other thing we possibly tend to forget is genomics sieves out the best of the pack, it is cow specific, Unique-Style Bolton Money is not a generic Bolton, she is probably his best daughter on a DNA level. Most of us recoil at seeing Bolton in a pedigree, but genomics helps identify the cows that have his strengths but few or none of his weaknesses. Same goes for Cookiecutter MOM Halo-ET.

Last edited by smous, 11/3/2018, 7:11


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11/3/2018, 6:16 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Money came from a double Bellwood cross that contained Marty this seems to be a great cross for Bolton because his best son was from this cross.

That son is Bolton Branch who has great production and type with great health traits especially when u consider he stems from a Bolton x BW Marshall cross.Genetically Branch was as good as it gets and he should of been used to further the Bolton line through his sons.
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Good genetics are where you find them. I am certainly not going out to bat for Bolton, but two of the extreme bulls for health traits with a couple thousand daughters each are Rodgers and Ponder, who are full brothers sired by Lithium who was a Domain out of Glen-Toctin Bolt Lucille-ET. Rodgers is the sire of OCD Rodgers Franchise-ET and also pops up as MGS in some high indexing pedigrees, I am currently selling a grandson who is the highest PL and DPR bull in the breed, he is also 5%CE.

I actually sold a small amount of Ponder, the daughters are about come into milk, will be interesting to see how they perform, they were nice enough heifers.

Doesn't hurt that Rodgers and Ponder's dam was a Brigeen Russell daughter.

Last edited by smous, 13/3/2018, 6:30


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13/3/2018, 6:26 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
errolston Profile
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


Smous, the calving ease figures you look for are they the same regardless of whether the bull was proven or genomic?
18/3/2018, 14:56 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: Bolton - King of Genomics?


I found this proof history for Mogul. His DPR was never predicted to be stellar. But check out the decline in his predicted Somatic Cell Count:

Mogul Proof History
18/3/2018, 15:02 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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