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MarkDay
Head Administrator
Registered: 06-2003
Location: North Yorkshire
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
My comment wasn't on the bull's proof but on their GP and better percentages!Leduc has more 83 point heifers than Outside because of where he has been used but that doesn't effect his proof and I will always look at a bulls proof rather than daughter scores.
--- Bickleygate holsteins
"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison
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2/11/2003, 11:57
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triday
Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 14
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
I am going to respectfully disagree with that
"Leduc has more 83 point heifers than Outside because of where he has been used"
When Leduc came out the hype machine from the competing AI's trashed his udders so bad that he was only used on the lower end and more marginal cows (at least in North America)as a chance for getting nice frames, his first crop daughters didn't really indicate his ability to sire show cattle. As far as I can recall very few of the big name herds ever touched the bull as evidenced by the fact his best daughters have all come out of unknown herds(for the most part,acknowledging his winning sr. 2 daughter at expo was out of a 93 point cow). Now Outside (at least in North America) has been used EVERYWHERE on the best of the best. I don't think there is a big name cow in this country that doesn't have daughters by Outside and more than one, cows like Ocean View Lindy Sheen EX 94, Tri-Day Ashlyn EX 96, Pine-Shelter Lucina Fargo EX 95, in Canada the story is the same. As far as I know, none of these cows have Leduc daughters, and Outside still gets used on the better cows while Leduc is relegated to the more common end of the herd. A few crosses are starting to emerge that he works very well on, mandel is one( I am not smart enough to know why that works) and on Encores.
**disclaimer** I don't like either bull
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2/11/2003, 15:23
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Roy MacGregor
Registered: 07-2003
Posts: 59
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
The only reason I don't use Leduc, is I am more than happy with my Gibsons. Feel Gibson would be more responsable for those not useing Leduc, than Outside. (have no proof, just an observation)I don't think more than 1 Jed son is needed in my small herd. As for Leduc making show heifers, or being bred to show cows, probably has a lot to do with his front end height, and they are consistaintly hard topped, and straight. For the # of daus this bull has, his # of show winners is extremly impressive. Would be VERY interested to hear of BETTER odds than this.(2050 Leducs, 12,500 Outsides) No need to justify useing Outside, he will also make the good ones, will see more and more of these at the shows as time goes on. But can someone clarify with proof, not just personal opinion, where Leduc is such a hit and miss bull? The way I see it Outside is far more this way than Leduc. If you bred 100 80 point cows to Leduc, and 100 80 point cows to Outside, the leducs will out score the Outsides every time, with less misses. There is no proof that says otherwise.
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2/11/2003, 16:44
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buckeyebreeder
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Ohio, USA
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
Triday and Roy, both of you are missing the point on Outside. He was used everywhere by everyone, just not for type or marketing reasons, because he was underproven from his first proof, which showed him as an adequate production no holes, inexpensive bull, with good conception. Those great cows that have been mated to him are from the buzz that started and continues for his second crop daughters. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that his proof from February or May of 2000 justified using him on Ashlyn, or Sheen, or Lucina Fargo? If you are, then you are nuts. Outside has proven himself as a great transmitter. Leduc has not, go apologize for Leduc somewhere else. Just really look at his proof and tell me he is a GREAT bull, you cannot. I said that I was going to agree to disagree, but this is ridiculous, Leduc was and has only been used for type and show, to imply otherwise is irresponsible.
I agree that Gibson is way better then Leduc and I can find a place for him in my herd. Leduc I cannot.
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2/11/2003, 17:58
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Roy MacGregor
Registered: 07-2003
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
Agree to dissagree all you want, it is obvious you used Outside, and how dare we say he is not perfect. 30 type traits and not even 1 minus. What proof are you looking at???
To quote you "Leduc has not proven himself" can not be taken seriously, where is your proof, with your opinion??
Never mind Outside, Gibson, or Counselor. Can you tell us a better bull with 2000 or less daus, that has made as many show winners as Leduc?? Would really love to know, can't think of any myself. Also would like to know where to find such imformation on services that were made for show only. I'm done sticking up for Leduc, don't care if you hate him, but come on what is it about this bull, that bothers so many. The HIT, and MISS theory, is 99% hearsay, no proof to back it up. Exspectations are this bulls biggest problem period.
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2/11/2003, 19:31
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triday
Registered: 09-2003
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
Buckeye breeder,
I like a good challenge. Can you name one great Outside daughter? Off the top of your head? That has accomplished something? Won shows? Broke production records? Scored high? High ranking CTPI cow? I can't, and I keep as up to date as anyone on Holstein happenings in the breed press and show and sales arena. I can name good linjets, red markers, leducs, bellwood marshalls, durhams, addisons.
As for this mr. consistency theory in everyday herds. The herds in ohio must be different than everywhere else(I never noticed this though in my travels there), I'm willing to accept the theory that Ohio breeders are just that much more gifted than the rest of the world, as Rose Milly and Charity both came from there. The outsides I see(about 45 milking so far and probaly 100+ heifers) are roundboned(and have short, ugly heads), tightribbed, thick hocked and have meatbags (doughbags, poor quality whatever way you choose to term it). The kind of udders that you milk out and can't really tell you've milked them out. I get in and out of a LOT of herds nationwide in a year's time, an awful lot and everywhere I have been, except Ocean View(they have some nice ones out of Sheen), the outsides are cattle, they will milk a lactation or two and drift into history (aka someone's throwaway cattle). In their defense I have heard from several breeders that they might look like steers(like the emersons) but they do milk decent. At least Leduc leaves some daughters that people like even if there is trash inbetween. Better to find an occasional rose among thorns, than have a whole garden of mutliflora rose. Neither Leduc or Outside is gonna go down as a breed great, too many funcitonal problems on both, but breed progress in the era of indexes is made from extremes and Leduc is at least extreme show type as opposed to Outsides's extreme lack of quality.
I'm sure you will through a bunch of proof figures at me about udder texture, PL, Linear traits for type, PTAs, which is fine, it makes wonderful debating which is what I like to see, but proofs are irrelevant to me, i trust what I see and people I trust report about cattle.
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2/11/2003, 20:32
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alan a
Ex97 Addict!
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Fermanagh
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
The NI Holstein show this year, both milking 2 year old classes were won be Outsides, with another 2 in third place. The front cover of the Semex catalogue features 8 Outsides from one farm. They are milking 23, have 18 VG as two year olds, and are still using the bull. Somebody must have sent semen from the wrong bull to those herds you have seen. I also know several other herds were he has done a great job in NI. I would say that 90% of those milking Outsides here have used him again.
It is very convenient to say that proofs don't interest you, just what you see or hear. That way you can never be proved wrong. Surely proof figures on over 10,000 daughters must say something.
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2/11/2003, 21:18
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foxleigh
Ex97 True blue dinky-di maverick
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
cant resist!!
my 2003/2004 semex catalogue says that of 9338 outside daus @62%gp or better there are NO excellents!
434 VG against 446 fair and 45 poor!!!!(more fair and poor daus than VG)
5400 GP and 3013 good.
he drops protein significantly by -0.18 and has a minus 1 for bone quality and +2 for udder texture.
Go for it mate your whole herd to him! we wont!
be back later after I suss out leducs stats!
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2/11/2003, 21:32
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foxleigh
Ex97 True blue dinky-di maverick
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
well that was interesting!
my local alta catalogue didnt even have a type breakdown on him,just a list of show winners!
off the canadian website I discovered he had 2050 daus@72% GP
NO excellents
204 VG vs 68 F and 12 P
1280 GP and 486 G
he appears to have a problem with chest width +1,Body depth +0 and front teat width.
and no wont be using him either.and now Im off to see how many people think the laurie sheiks are their favorite cow family!!!
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2/11/2003, 21:42
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buckeyebreeder
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Ohio, USA
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Re: Lystel Leduc??
Outside daughters.
Dubosquest Outside Buche EX 91
2001 Reserve All American Fall Yearling
Robthom Kamille Outside
A cow that has done good things in her area.
I have recently seen several VG87 High CTPI daughters 1800+ advertised as having huge amounts of contract demand. Check recent publications. I don't have time. They are out there.
Not to mention the cow that I get up and look at every morning that is the first cow in the barn that every visitor asks about. She is an Outside out of a total piece of trash failed young sire daughter. She has not been scored, is 4+ years old, probably would score VG88-EX90 depending on the day, but has been trouble free and has given me two fantastic daughters. This is the problem I see with people who trash Outside, HE WAS USED ON THE LOWER HALF OF MOST HERDS, and still has the proof that he has. People who focus on show type are still miffed at him for his original proof. As for the number of Poors and Fairs, so what! When he was first released, he was an adequate production no holes, inexpensive bull, with good conception, which translates into: A bull that gets used on alot of bad cows. Notice his PTAT, that is where you can see his difference from his contemporaries. Obviously they are doing something right. As for his protein perhaps I don't understand MACE or the protein formulas that different countries use but his US proof shows -.03 which I deem as acceptable. This will be my last post on this topic as I feel like this:
:urhh
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3/11/2003, 4:32
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