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howie32 Profile
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Ex96

Registered: 05-2004
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 884
Karma: 25 (+26/-1)
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Re: Red Marker


quote:

amlkman wrote:

Problem here in california our cows only average a little over two lactations. Got to get all you can out of them from the start. It's hard to have a comercial herd and want to breed better cows. Bulls like Leduc and linjet, red marker, don't fit in our program.Will use them to get some nice calves for the kids but thats about it. can't wait 3 lactations for her to get into her prime. Wish I could, trying to breed for more productive life. But takes time. Can't use $35.00 bulls across the herd, way to expensive.


quote:


We have to buy replacements. Spent $470,000.00 last year. Realy trying to improve productive life. Would like to get to be a closed herd. Would have 470 grand in the pocket.



Seems like to me if you could spend a little extra on better bulls to end up with cows that would last longer it would be profitable in the end. In theory, better bulls should breed better cows which would in turn tend to last longer, thus there should be less of a need for all of the replacements.

---
Long-Haven Farms, updated October 23, 2008
28/7/2004, 13:28 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
canuk Profile
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Ex97
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Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1329
Karma: 24 (+25/-1)
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Re: Red Marker


Amlkman read my post in Shore sale, for up to date prices on Canadian heifers.
28/7/2004, 15:32 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
FiringOnAllFour Profile
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Ex97
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Registered: 01-2004
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2203
Karma: 43 (+43/-0)
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Re: Red Marker


So you have talked about breeding 'good' cows that last 'a long time'.

Can someone therefore give me the best bull PROVEN to

reduce cases of lameness, mastitis, calving problems (as 1st calvers),

and
 
increase immune response to calf-bed infection (possibly linked to calving problems), and to pneumonia,

and

return to normal cyclicity quickly, and hold to service at high milk yield.


When a bull proof comes in through my letterbox, this is the information I want to read. Why aren't we making more of an effort to measure these things? The Scandinavians can.

28/7/2004, 21:05 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
mmt95 Profile
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EX95

Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 605
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Re: Red Marker


Because the bull studs call the shots. They control the bulls that are picked and proven from conception on. Which stay and which get their throats cut. Their measure of a sucessful bull is not necessarily what you are looking for. Productive life according to the computer is not very reliable.

If you know your own cows' inherent genetics and have 400 cows or more, you can sucessfully be your own geneticist, using your own cows that have the traits you want, as the bull mothers.

After a while you may be using your own bulls' sons. Which AI sire analyst do you think knows more about your cows than you do?
28/7/2004, 21:23 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
canuk Profile
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Ex97
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Re: Red Marker


FOAF- I understand your point completely, and agree all are important, but if they are your #1 priority, and the Scandinavions are proving bulls, with these points in mind, why do you not use their bulls? especally if you do not intend to market any of your young stock, the fact that some of there bulls are not pure holstein, should not bother you.
28/7/2004, 22:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
classcow Profile
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EX95

Registered: 07-2004
Posts: 608
Karma: 37 (+37/-0)
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Re: Red Marker


quote:

mmt95 wrote:

Because the bull studs call the shots. They control the bulls that are picked and proven from conception on. Which stay and which get their throats cut. Their measure of a sucessful bull is not necessarily what you are looking for. Productive life according to the computer is not very reliable.

If you know your own cows' inherent genetics and have 400 cows or more, you can sucessfully be your own geneticist, using your own cows that have the traits you want, as the bull mothers.

After a while you may be using your own bulls' sons. Which AI sire analyst do you think knows more about your cows than you do?



MMT - I agree with your point, but I always take it one step further. The AI companies keep bulls that they can sell. Unfortunately, there are not enough good breeders in the world who buy good bulls. Too many dairymen spend little time studying and evaluating possible matings. THey do not know the difference between a good cow and a bad one, hence know the same about a bull. THose dairymen like looking at the book and seeing numbers. Since 2 is bogger than 1, that bull must be good. I blame the entire downfall relating to the index system to ignorant dairymen. Many in the AI industry know that they are selling bad bulls, but they are SELLING them.
29/7/2004, 3:32 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Big Bird Profile
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Cowtalk Staff

Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 3421
Karma: 39 (+40/-1)
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Re: Red Marker


quote:

canuk wrote:

FOAF- I understand your point completely, and agree all are important, but if they are your #1 priority, and the Scandinavions are proving bulls, with these points in mind, why do you not use their bulls? especally if you do not intend to market any of your young stock, the fact that some of there bulls are not pure holstein, should not bother you.




The only way to vote is with your wallet. If the Scandinavians are giving you what you want, that's what you buy. If enough people agree with you and do the same, the rest of the AI industry has to follow or loose business.
29/7/2004, 10:13 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
FiringOnAllFour Profile
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Ex97
Cyborg


Registered: 01-2004
Location: Northern Ireland
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Re: Red Marker


I do have to consider what my heifers look and milk like, as 50% are sold.

Personally, if I thought that including genetics from other breeds would improve the genetic resource in my herd, then I would do so (although it would be a brave step for me).

What I would much rather have, would be to see the Holstein breed furthered in this direction. The three main reasons for culling in the UK are Mastitis, Lameness, and Fertility Problems (I think in that order). You make it sound like these are only my priorities, Canuk. In fact, they trouble most herds in the UK, therefore why are more farmers not asking for good information on these?

OK. Lets buy a tractor. I need to know:
- the cost of purchase e.g. Hire Purchase
   (rearing cost or purchase cost/yr of productive life)

- the potential productivity
   (production traits)

- the fuel efficiency
   (energy maintainance cost)

- what breakdowns the machine is most likely to suffer
   (susceptibilty to disease or weakness)

- what the breakdown costs to repair and what the down-time would be
   (cost of treatment and lost production)

- service cost
   (e.g. frequency of hoof trimming, length of dry period)

- life expectancy
   

Some may find this a frivilous comparison. But farming's hayday is long gone, and its down to number crunching.
29/7/2004, 12:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Brian Profile
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EX92

Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 287
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Re: Red Marker


I dont think its a frivalous comparison at all, many of the comparisons are very true but the problem is that genetics and cows are a lot more complcated than a piece of machinery.

---
Time is never wasted, when you're wasted all the time!
29/7/2004, 12:48 Link to this post PM via Email
 
howie32 Profile
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Ex96

Registered: 05-2004
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 884
Karma: 25 (+26/-1)
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Re: Red Marker


quote:

FiringOnAllFour wrote:

So you have talked about breeding 'good' cows that last 'a long time'.

Can someone therefore give me the best bull PROVEN to

reduce cases of lameness, mastitis, calving problems (as 1st calvers),

and
 
increase immune response to calf-bed infection (possibly linked to calving problems), and to pneumonia,

and

return to normal cyclicity quickly, and hold to service at high milk yield.


When a bull proof comes in through my letterbox, this is the information I want to read. Why aren't we making more of an effort to measure these things? The Scandinavians can.




Quite a few of these things can also be affected by management. I'm not sure that I have ever noticed any particular bull that sires daughters that get mastitis more than others.


---
Long-Haven Farms, updated October 23, 2008
29/7/2004, 13:16 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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