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EX95

Registered: 04-2004
Posts: 589
Karma: 25 (+25/-0)
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


quote:

canuk wrote:

How many bulls have actually improved on 2nd crop. NOT TOO MANY thats for sure. Semex now has there masters series bulls, which are bulls whose proof actually improved, with the most recent bull being Allen. Anyone out there have some to name to that list?



Tesk-Holm Valiant Rockie is probably the biggest increase of a bull from 1st to 2nd crop summeries I can recall.

He was sampled in the early 80's by NOBA in Ohio they where probably the last small stud left in the US at the time and I think they where also historically the 1st bull stud. When he recieved his 1st crop he was always planted at the bottom 3 of the line-up. About that time they entered into a Marketing agreement with Sire Power.I remember Sire Power had there Valiant son Modik Valiant Count and Noba had there Tesk.

Both where scored EX-94, Count always looked a little better but Tesk was a bit more outcross for the Sire Power area we chose Tesk to use a good bit while the neighbors all used Count.

When he recieved 2nd crop he skyrocketed to the top and dont think anyone can call him a flash in the pan today.

They where known to give large quanities of milk over long time frames and hes had some noticible influences in alot of bulls today.



14/6/2004, 0:08 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
closet Syrup lover


Registered: 05-2004
Location: Shropshire / Welsh border
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


Another problem with analising second crop results is changes in the index formulas we judge them by.
For example TPI has changed a lot in recent years and when the formula changes so the bulls go up and down. Tesk was a very good bull but his main reason for shooting up the TPI list at the time was the change of emphasis in the formula to protein. I think it went from:-
Fat 2:2 Protein to :-
Fat 1:4 protein
Tesk was a high protein low fat sire.

There were massive changes in TPI recently with intro of productive life. As I have said before a bull with +3.00 productive life gets 90 point advantage over a bull with
+1.00 prod life. These new additions to formula can really shift bulls up and down with bulls previously 100 places apart changing places.
14/6/2004, 8:48 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
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Registered: 05-2004
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


Biggest second crop sucesses that you would probably like to see in the pedigree in recent times may be:-

Integrity, Geno, Juror, Aaron, Starboy, Derry, Durham, Emory, Storm, Rudolph, Outside, Forbidden, Gelpro, Convincer, Jocko Besne, Marconi, Meadowlord, Eddie, Montu, Skywalker, Mtoto, Tugolo, Boone, Emerson, BW Marshall and Ford.

I am sure there are lots of others. These are just the ones I am familiar with.



Last edited by Bullpen, 14/6/2004, 9:32
14/6/2004, 9:29 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
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Registered: 11-2003
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


Bullpen - If you compare origonal proofs, to proofs today, a lot of your bulls can be scratched off. To make this list they should be very close to, or above origonal proofs. Semex's list includs Allen, Storm, Lee, Aeroline, Cousteau, Outside, Leader Rudolph, James, Rubens, & Gibson. Would be nice if World Wide, and the like, could make a list like this, with the proof figures to go with it. All Semex figures are on their web site.
14/6/2004, 19:17 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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EX95

Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


quote:

Bullpen wrote:

Biggest second crop sucesses that you would probably like to see in the pedigree in recent times may be:-

Integrity, Geno, Juror, Aaron, Starboy, Derry, Durham, Emory, Storm, Rudolph, Outside, Forbidden, Gelpro, Convincer, Jocko Besne, Marconi, Meadowlord, Eddie, Montu, Skywalker, Mtoto, Tugolo, Boone, Emerson, BW Marshall and Ford.

I am sure there are lots of others. These are just the ones I am familiar with.




I don't know if I'd call all of these bulls second crop success stories.
14/6/2004, 19:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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GP83

Registered: 06-2003
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


Does Forbidden have a 2nd crop proof!
14/6/2004, 20:03 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Cowtalk Staff

Registered: 11-2003
Location: South Africa
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


Yes, he now has 277 dtrs in his production proof adding 166 since February. If Emory was the different Blackstar, Forbidden is the different Emory.

---
WWS-SA
14/6/2004, 20:57 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
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Registered: 05-2004
Location: Shropshire / Welsh border
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


quote:

IndiesViewGD wrote:

quote:

Bullpen wrote:

Biggest second crop sucesses that you would probably like to see in the pedigree in recent times may be:-

Integrity, Geno, Juror, Aaron, Starboy, Derry, Durham, Emory, Storm, Rudolph, Outside, Forbidden, Gelpro, Convincer, Jocko Besne, Marconi, Meadowlord, Eddie, Montu, Skywalker, Mtoto, Tugolo, Boone, Emerson, BW Marshall and Ford.

I am sure there are lots of others. These are just the ones I am familiar with.




I don't know if I'd call all of these bulls second crop success stories.



So which ones of these would you consider failures?



Last edited by Bullpen, 14/6/2004, 21:22
14/6/2004, 21:17 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Ex97
closet Syrup lover


Registered: 05-2004
Location: Shropshire / Welsh border
Posts: 1184
Karma: 108 (+108/-0)
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


quote:

canuk wrote:

Bullpen - If you compare origonal proofs, to proofs today, a lot of your bulls can be scratched off. To make this list they should be very close to, or above origonal proofs. Semex's list includs Allen, Storm, Lee, Aeroline, Cousteau, Outside, Leader Rudolph, James, Rubens, & Gibson. Would be nice if World Wide, and the like, could make a list like this, with the proof figures to go with it. All Semex figures are on their web site.



And here was me trying to spread the praise around a bit with some from France, some from Italy, all the different USA studs and even some from Canada- when all we really need to do is stamp a maple leaf on our foreheads and wear blinkers.Good old Canuk- true to form as always.
14/6/2004, 21:26 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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EX95

Registered: 06-2003
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Re: Improved on 2nd crop


I personally dont consider a bull to really have a proof until he gets up into the 96 or 97 % reliability zone(especially for type)although any "proof" even if its low reliability is better than none.

I think the buying habits of farmers(at least as far as semen goes)falls right into the AI's hands to make good money without providing a real quality product(I'm all for them making a good profit)but until we stop being such suckers for the "new hot bull" and buy so much semen from first crop bulls and not use more second crop, high reliability bulls,the current situation is just going to go on and on.

I was kind of shocked at the list of bulls that a freind who is a commercial-pedigree farmer had in his tank.He's been such a voice for the "cows got to last" group,and here he was buying all these new "mesiah" bulls and still had some relly good 2nd. crop bulls that he asked if we were interested in,and the kicker was that he had cows that matched up real well to those bulls.When I asked him about why so much of all the new hot stuff, he replied that he wanted to keep up the pedigree index.He's got some good cows but he's along ways away from getting AI contracts especially here in Spain.

High reliability bulls are the only ones where P.L.,D.F.R.,low S.C.S. really mean anything and I'm convinced that that's what all farmers need to be using a lot more of but at least here in Spain I still see alot of people who are sill real susceptible to a "cure all"," mesiah" ,"miracle cure" mentality.

In an "IDEAL SITUATION" bulls wouldn't be used much as sires of sons until they got into the 96% or better, zone of reliability.Most bull mothers would at least have 3 or 4 complete lact.behind them,and the very few first lact. bull mothers would only be from really good high productive life families.But thats just a bunch of idealism.So what I think what we farmers need to do is to consistently be buying much more of the good high reliability bulls who have a "real" proof and buy less of the semi-proven bulls and hopefully the AI's will take note of the market demand.
14/6/2004, 22:21 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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