WORST BULL EVER USED? https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/t828 Runboard| WORST BULL EVER USED? en-us Fri, 29 Mar 2024 10:41:55 +0000 Fri, 29 Mar 2024 10:41:55 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442117,from=rss#post442117https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442117,from=rss#post442117quote:AHVP wrote: How was hoof health with the Mortys? Never had any myself (too expensive and only available for a short time) but heard about issues like that from people who milked some. Otherwise, worst bulls I had daughters from were: - Fatal and Gelpro because of their SCC. - Gaiac (Leadman x Nomrah Conductor Tom x Cutlass)... he looked great when he was released but they were just tall, frail, totally unhealthy from head to tail. - Loch-Latch Tasmanian Devil (Chairman x Valiant x Starlite) milked like crazy but couldn't breed back and had poor udder health. - Anything with Luke in the pedigree, sons and PT paternal grandsons. Gaiac, forgot about him. Exactly as you describe if it wasn't feet it was mastitis on every one they were terrible! nondisclosed_email@example.com (mackie88)Sun, 09 Aug 2015 20:16:31 +0000 Re: Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442095,from=rss#post442095https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442095,from=rss#post442095quote:Polytechnic Imperial Knight wrote: Well it's certainly embarrassing for me and my dad whom have bred for type for a very long time. I don't think that udder is going to last much anyway. I understand if you breed for type, you don't want the daughters to score lower than their dam and so on. I have respect for people breeding for type that tell it clearly, my friend and neighbor is like that and he does pretty well at it. But as for me, had a P-64 cow that had a stretchy udder, nothing fancy to look at but always getting back in order after calving. Teats were a bit widely placed and cleft was awful but it didn't fall apart and remained the same as in first lactation. nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Sat, 08 Aug 2015 07:11:52 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442077,from=rss#post442077https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442077,from=rss#post442077Well it's certainly embarrassing for me and my dad whom have bred for type for a very long time. I don't think that udder is going to last much anyway. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Polytechnic Imperial Knight)Fri, 07 Aug 2015 15:11:05 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442075,from=rss#post442075https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442075,from=rss#post442075Never been fond of Marion blood as well. Thought Emerald would have gotten a bit more of Lynch. 71 embarassing? Had some with such scores that were decent, honest hard working cows. Unless you're truly looking for type, of course, but I must say my ideal cow would rank between 77 and 84, those used to be the best ones.nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Fri, 07 Aug 2015 15:04:46 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442022,from=rss#post442022https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p442022,from=rss#post442022Have to add to the list: Bomaz Marion Emerald. We recently had my dad's herd classified, she was the lowest scored at 71 points, borderline embarrassing. Terrible, bulgy udder. Never using anything with Marion blood in my life again. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Polytechnic Imperial Knight)Wed, 05 Aug 2015 20:22:18 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441324,from=rss#post441324https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441324,from=rss#post441324Our tie stalls were a little on the short side (length) and because of that, the cows were pretty clean and the bedding stayed really dry. Plus we bedded with straw back then, which I think is better for hoof health than shavings. Regardless, now we are in sand freestalls.nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Sun, 14 Jun 2015 18:19:40 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441320,from=rss#post441320https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441320,from=rss#post441320I had issues with warts in tie stall barn one year but nothing concerning after that fall. But overall I'd say we had better hoof health once we switched to free stall. But I guess it depends also on what type of tie stall it was, I know what we had in Europe is often quite different to US or Canadian systems.nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Sun, 14 Jun 2015 06:55:11 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441312,from=rss#post441312https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441312,from=rss#post441312Warts were an issue, nothing claw related that I can recall. Admittingly, we had recently switched from tie stall to free stall, and for the first year or two, there was a learning curve with foot health, we never had warts until we moved to the freestall. Now that we've adjusted management, our foot health is the best ever even before when we were in the tie stall. But we had to change our mind set, I guess we intensively manage hoof health now, whereas in the tie stall, we didn't need to. We've always trimmed feet but now it is done more routinely. This may just be because I can't stand to see long toes or lame cows.nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Thu, 11 Jun 2015 16:15:36 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441308,from=rss#post441308https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441308,from=rss#post441308How was hoof health with the Mortys? Never had any myself (too expensive and only available for a short time) but heard about issues like that from people who milked some. Otherwise, worst bulls I had daughters from were: - Fatal and Gelpro because of their SCC. - Gaiac (Leadman x Nomrah Conductor Tom x Cutlass)... he looked great when he was released but they were just tall, frail, totally unhealthy from head to tail. - Loch-Latch Tasmanian Devil (Chairman x Valiant x Starlite) milked like crazy but couldn't breed back and had poor udder health. - Anything with Luke in the pedigree, sons and PT paternal grandsons. nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Thu, 11 Jun 2015 07:17:50 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441306,from=rss#post441306https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441306,from=rss#post441306We had 5 Morty's. 2 made it to 4+ lactations. 2 made it to 2 -3 lactations, and one I culled 1st lactation because she was bad-uddered. One of them is excellent, and a cow that is transmitting well. The 2 Morty's that made it to 4+ lactations are great production cows, and thus got extra chances to stick around, but I can honestly say (minus the one culled for udder) the other 4 were all hard to get pregnant. nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Wed, 10 Jun 2015 22:18:27 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441303,from=rss#post441303https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441303,from=rss#post441303Morty did very well for us. Most of them are still in the barn, and they are around their 4th or 5th lactationnondisclosed_email@example.com (Polytechnic Imperial Knight)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 22:44:49 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441301,from=rss#post441301https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441301,from=rss#post441301Rudolph, Blackstar, Elevation, Outside, Lee, Starleader, Super, Ramos, Oman, Durham, Jeeves No warranty for completeness ;-)nondisclosed_email@example.com (ostfriese)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 21:05:43 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441300,from=rss#post441300https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441300,from=rss#post441300Ostfriese-- I'm interested in which Bulls you like to see in the pedigree.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Blackwalnut)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 20:45:11 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441299,from=rss#post441299https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441299,from=rss#post441299Aspen - had nearly a dozen, very few made it to 3rd calf, major disappointment, fertility was terrible. Morty - Milked like crazy, didn't bred back. But some of them I still have get away with poor fertility due to their production levels. I have one who is nearing 2 years from last calf still making 95 lbs. Contender - not enough type as he was hyped, and no milk. nondisclosed_email@example.com (PADairymen)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 20:41:37 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441298,from=rss#post441298https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441298,from=rss#post441298I think pedigree and indexes are both important. In my early years i only looked for the highest numbers. And i got what i deserved. Lots of good heifers with (very) high milk yield. But unfortunataly only a few good cows, because most of them whent up the truck to early.  Now i check up the pedigree first. If only one of the last four sires disappointed with his (grand)daughters in my herd, I'm not interested in the proof. And of course there are bulls, wich I like to see in the pedigree. Meanwhile, our heifers are still good, but their milk yield went down quite a lot. But the cows last longer. Productive life whent up for 1,5 lactations and so the milk yield over all cows raised also. On the other side, if the numbers can't convince me, I' not interested to study the pedigree. nondisclosed_email@example.com (ostfriese)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 20:34:05 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441292,from=rss#post441292https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441292,from=rss#post441292I still stand by what I say. Pedigree breeders are always experts after the fact. You can dig around the pedigree and find what ever you want to find. Trying to predict it before hand by pedigree and the results are not as great. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 11:18:49 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441291,from=rss#post441291https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441291,from=rss#post441291I fully agree with your last sentence, a bit with some other points you made. For me, as I said earlier, I need both in most cases. Let's say a bull with an awesome pedigree for health that comes out with negative figures across the board is a waste. On the other hand, I won't put much trust in a bull with good health traits coming from a pedigree containing terrible health transmitters... unless he is a second-crop bull with thousands of daughters. After all, genetics are genetics, with its random part and we're not always able to find out where everything comes from. I think studying pedigrees is extremely important when you want to use indexes and genomics the best way but sometimes you just can't point out why it happens and where it comes from. I remember one of the biggest heifers I had. And she was from a PT sire (Mountain x Mascot x Southwind x Cleitus x Chairman) out of a Brownson Bell Roman (Bell x Glendell) then another PT bull by Moodys Pat Troy. I had some huge cows from the same line but they were out of bulls by Pete and Wayne, easier to figure out then. nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 08:53:37 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441290,from=rss#post441290https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441290,from=rss#post441290I have much more trust in the pedigree than in numbers. I know there are some bulls out of wired pedigrees that turned out very good. But there are much more bulls with high numbers that turn out bad. For me its also ok to look at the proof, but than you have to think about it, to be shure if its linked to the pedigree or not. A lot of people only thinking of preeding the highest genomic cattle and breed the highest heifer with the highest bull. That should not be the goal. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Silberhofgenetics)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 06:58:10 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441288,from=rss#post441288https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441288,from=rss#post441288Not that great to predict what will actually happen? Surely if you base your judgement on pedigree alone. Of course today genomics may help a bit while at Okendo's time we didn't have this extra tool but when there is only limited info available (either genomic numbers alone or a batch of 100 dtrs / 60 herds) it might be useful to study a little bit the pedigree when there is something that looks dubious with the proofs. When Okendo was released, he looked much more like a Mountain x Curious than a Winchester son, he wasn't poorly sampled like Roumare yet in the end he's got Winchester flaws in the udder area and the healthy profile he seemed to have inherited from his maternal pedigree was watered down by Winchester's genes. In such cases, I wouldn't say avoid the bull if proofs look good but remain cautious, use carefully or wait a bit. Worse happened with Andacres Morty Onward for example. He looked alright for fitness despite his sire and that would have been explained easily by a maternal sire stack of Outside x Leadman x Belltone. Now Onward can compete with Morty for PL, DPR etc. Perfectly worthless bull in the end. It also happens the other way round, like Dorcy or Abram. Bolton's poor health could have affected them but being respectively out of Bret x Rudolph and O-Man x Comestar Leader dams, the maternal line did the job. Breeding for pedigree alone or index/genomic numbers alone sounds like a nonsense to me when we have both tools. That's my point, though, and to each his own and I don't say I have a magic formula and I've been misled by either pedigrees or proofs from time to time.nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Tue, 09 Jun 2015 06:01:26 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441284,from=rss#post441284https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441284,from=rss#post441284You can use the pedigree to prove whatever you want. Especially after the fact, just keep digging deep enough in the pedigree until you find what you want to find. Not that great for predicting what will actually happen though. nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Mon, 08 Jun 2015 22:37:06 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441283,from=rss#post441283https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441283,from=rss#post441283well he says he got what the pedigree suggested not what the ai company that did the mating anticipated. I mean why would you use a bull whose daus may look like the full sisters? ie. once upon a time there was a bull called jed.many people on here do not have fond memories of him.He had a marvellous proof type wise but you had to protect him on front teat placement. Neighbours down the raod used him ......their jed daus were short ,fat round, 44 gallon drum shaped with 4 short legs and they couldn't understand why ..... WHY is his dam was a sweet haven tradition daughter the highest classified one ever. At the other end of the bell curve traditons were short, thick and round altho they had tidy udders.It was all there in the pedigree.Just depends which way the dice rolls on the daynondisclosed_email@example.com (foxleigh)Mon, 08 Jun 2015 22:29:34 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441282,from=rss#post441282https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441282,from=rss#post441282quote:foxleigh wrote: don't you hate it when you get precisely what the pedigree says and not what the numbers say And where did you get the information to come to the conclusion about what the pedigree says?? The numbers? How many times has the pedigree been wrong??nondisclosed_email@example.com (bazza20)Mon, 08 Jun 2015 22:16:49 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441281,from=rss#post441281https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441281,from=rss#post441281don't you hate it when you get precisely what the pedigree says and not what the numbers saynondisclosed_email@example.com (foxleigh)Mon, 08 Jun 2015 22:01:02 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441278,from=rss#post441278https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441278,from=rss#post441278Yes it was a contract mating and of corse we only got heifers out of the mating. :-( I have to say that the feet and legs have been very good. Short neck, no dairycharacter, and way too much udder volume. No Style. But I knew the pedigree of this bull so I was not surprised.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Silberhofgenetics)Mon, 08 Jun 2015 15:47:37 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441235,from=rss#post441235https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441235,from=rss#post441235I'm surprised to read Okendo among a list of bulls that you've used, Silberhof. Judging by the names of bulls you often mention, I wouldn't have expected a Winchester x Mountain x Curious. Was it contract matings? What was actually wrong with them? I must say my opinion is quite mixed, he's not the worst bull France has produced lately but he's lost a lot of his initial appeal now that he looks average for health traits and mediocre as sire of sons (seems Winchester is a good transmitter of his numerous flaws...).nondisclosed_email@example.com (AHVP)Tue, 02 Jun 2015 15:51:32 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441233,from=rss#post441233https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441233,from=rss#post441233Okendo Laurin Goldwyn nondisclosed_email@example.com (Silberhofgenetics)Tue, 02 Jun 2015 13:24:56 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441197,from=rss#post441197https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441197,from=rss#post441197Fortune contains the blood that Ned Boy was made from maybe by using a double (Ned Boy) Mascot bull u brought some Ned Boy type to the surface.Although Man-O-Man needs a bull like the Mascot type strong with great fore attachments as Man-O-Man is more of the Luke kind.    nondisclosed_email@example.com (KINGMAMBO)Sat, 30 May 2015 08:16:58 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441193,from=rss#post441193https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441193,from=rss#post441193The fore udders don't look very good. They are honestly one of the worst 2 Year Olds I have seen. And one of them was from a Fortune that had very good type. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Polytechnic Imperial Knight)Fri, 29 May 2015 21:13:56 +0000 Re:https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441192,from=rss#post441192https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441192,from=rss#post441192give them a few months; sometimes the ones that look frail often come back to surprise. nondisclosed_email@example.com (dabble1980)Fri, 29 May 2015 20:53:10 +0000 Re: WORST BULL EVER USED?https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441191,from=rss#post441191https://bcowtalk.runboard.com/p441191,from=rss#post441191What are the MoM fore udders like?nondisclosed_email@example.com (errolston)Fri, 29 May 2015 20:51:34 +0000