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Ex97
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Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1329
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Re: shormar james


Here goes ghz
Raider 70% 4,178 Vg or better- 661 F&P now + 7 type
Jethro 74% 2,534 Vg or better 131 F&P now + 5 type
Cheif Mark 79% 895 Vg or better 87 F&P now + 1 type
Triple Thr 80% 2,809 Vg or better 82 F&P now 0 type
Starbuck 71% 7,561 Vg or better 750 F&P now + 5 type
Blackstar 77% 943 Vg or better 71 F&P now + 4 type
Counselor 79% 3,007 Vg or better 162 F&P now + 9 type
Broker 71% 4,612 Vg or better 727 F&P now + 6 type
Just a sample, and no their not all greats either, Valiant, RORAE, and others all come out pretty good, but you get the idea. More modern bulls Gibson, Leduc, Cousteau, Stormatic, Lyster, September Storm,Lheros, and others all seem to be on the right track.
One Semex bull that really bothers me is Inquirer was 15 type, 53% 13 Vg 77 F&P, still + 10 type, come on this guy is not going to improve much.
other bad ones Bellwood, Monday, AAron,Luke, Addison, and one of the worst I've ever seen Roma Romans maternal bother by Brock 12% 0 Vg, 24 F&P .
These bulls can and will give you herd avg of 10,00 kgs, and they will avg more than the avg score of what ever country your in, I beleive Canadas is under 80 points.
I have NEVER said James or Outside are not good bulls, I beleive they are, they just make a few too many on the other end of the scale for me.
Have 70 cows, and followers, work 600 acres, no staff at present, try to get some releif from May to Oct.
I sell no semen, I show very little, but I like good cows.



4/12/2003, 4:13 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
simon powell Profile
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EX94

Registered: 06-2003
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Re: shormar james


quote:

MarkDay wrote:

Hello Canuk

would you use a bull with the following stats no matter what his type score?

85 Classified - 3 EX
           31 VG - 40% VG or Better
           62 GP or better - 73% Gp or Better




Figures do seem a bit confusing Mark!!!
Is that 85 classified
         3 EX
        31 VG
        62 GP = 96???????
5/12/2003, 0:44 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
MarkDay Profile
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Head Administrator

Registered: 06-2003
Location: North Yorkshire
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Re: shormar james


No........ 62 GP or BETTER daughters, ie including VG's and excellents!!

Just checked the bull again and his actual statistics are

2EX 32VG 28GP 18G 5F 0P(none)

Amazingly this bull has a UK type score under 2
and converts to only +3 Canadian type.

I really haven't made my mind up on this GP and better thing but I do think it can be a guide.I'm using the above bull because of what I know but if I just looked at his type figures I probably would think twice!

 
 

Last edited by MarkDay, 5/12/2003, 10:00


---
Bickleygate holsteins

"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison
5/12/2003, 9:58 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
simon powell Profile
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EX94

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Re: shormar james


The fog clears..............Thanks!!!!!

Have not checked any figures so risk looking a bit stupid, but I wouldn't mind entering into your game, by guessing that you are referring to Shaker, whose type figures baffle me, considering his daughter's strike rate and their improvement over their dams.

There you are, even if I am wrong I have just inadvertantly done some Cogent promotion for you!!!!!!

I'm off to check the figures now, to see if I am correct.
Your subtle brand of marketing gets me every time!!!!!

Oh yes.............I nearly forgot. Whilst GP and better is not a definitive measure, it is another useful weapon in our armoury, and something I take note of, when available.
The more daughters that a bull has classified, the more accurate GP and better becomes as a measure of that bulls transmitting ability. Therefore CANUK's point is valid, that the bulls we consider to be all time greats generally score well in this department!!
5/12/2003, 11:09 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Big Bird Profile
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Re: shormar james


looks like you're right Simon, could well be Shaker.

Interesting one. Type merit looks lower than I would normally use here, but looks vey capable of producing good cows. Sort of production proof that is very handy today. Our classifier spoke highly of him back in October.

Hell, now you've got me at it Mark!

---
65 cows - 9500 litres @ 3.8 fat, 3.25 protein. 25 VG, 4 EX

Also rear surplus dairy heifers + beef stores.

Simple system, grass based, no TMR. No full time labour.
5/12/2003, 11:49 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
MarkDay Profile
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Re: shormar james


Correct!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for all the promotion guys! :teethy

Seriously I do believe Shaker is a better bull than his type merit indicates,he has a brother with a TM of over three who was never marketed because he died which is a real shame.His dam also has 6 excellent and 15 VG progeny a lot of which are not by type specialist sires.

To bring some balance though, and just so you don't think I am pushing him too much I think his GP and better score may possibly be a little inflated.His sample period coincided with the foot and mouth out break and therefore there were some better daughters not classified as heifers that have since classified 2nd or 3rd lactation-there are likely to have been some not so good daughters that having missed the compulsory classification have not been classified since.
This doesn't take away from his ability to sire great cows and I also believe he is a bull that will benefit greatly from the test day model as his daughters produce comparatively more as they get older.

The reason I brought this up was because I was slated on here by someone for using the bull and I wanted to see how that person would react to his GP and better stats!


---
Bickleygate holsteins

"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison
5/12/2003, 14:49 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Bob Profile
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Registered: 06-2003
Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
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Re: shormar james


Interesting topic. %GP is very misleading unless you are comparing like with like.
Main factors are 1. Age at classification, 2.% in pedigree herds.

Believe it or not improvement over dams is not calculated. Bull proofs are calculated by seeing how daughters of one bull compare to daughters of other bulls milking in the same herd at the same time at the same age.

1. Age at classification - In its early life a bull will have all 2 yr old daughters. This is when his %GP will be at its lowest. When the daughters go to 2nd, 3rd lactation average scores are most likely to improve.

2.% in pedigree herds. Some bulls are tested in predominantly pedigree herds - others are not. Testing in a pedigree herd is going to give higher %GP or better because:- a) average quality of dams is higher b) They will be rescored as they get older, whereas those tested in non pedigree herds will not.

Interestingly I found a bull - not mine and not Marks that is +2.53 Type. I counted his daughters on the HUk website. He has 71 dtrs and only 27 made GP which is 38%. So either this is not really a high type bull or it was tested on poorer quality. Looking at scores (they are all now 5 yr olds)- it seems majority out of pedigree herds were GP or better(will almost certainly have been scored twice) whereas those in non pedigree herds were Fair or Poor - none of which would ever have seen the classifier again to rescore them 2nd calf. So lots of anomolies that need addressing if you use %GP as your selection criteria.

%GP and better is only any use if you are comparing bulls tested the same way, in the same type of herds and at the same stage of their career.

Last edited by Bob, 5/12/2003, 16:01
5/12/2003, 15:16 Link to this post PM via Email
 
simon powell Profile
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EX94

Registered: 06-2003
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Re: shormar james


Hey Bob,

I don't wish to be churlish but 27 out of 71 is not 27%.
I think that you may have your numbers muddled somewhere!
5/12/2003, 15:51 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Bob Profile
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Registered: 06-2003
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Re: shormar james


Good spot Simon 38%. I will edit above also.
5/12/2003, 16:00 Link to this post PM via Email
 
canuk Profile
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Ex97
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Registered: 11-2003
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Re: shormar james


Bob- On your quotes
1 You are correct bulls do tend to go up in % as they get older, but any bull with near or above 70% on their 1st crop and a high type figure is more likely to maintain his type figures as his 2nd crop starts to calve. Inquirer is a prime example. High type poor % 2nd crop now calving type going down.

2- Right on with comment about pedigree daus, getting rescored, grades not likly to. But as far as I know, bulls over here are all proven, what I would consider pretty evenly. We don't have the dissparity of 50 cow and 1000 cow herds like they do in the U.S, and I'm not all that familiar with what level of disspairity there is in the U.K
I beleive this is where you can spot the ones that are doomed to fail. Inquirer again as my example. More on this later have to go.
5/12/2003, 17:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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