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MarkDay Profile
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MACLAND STORMIN BILL


Any views on this Storm x Integrity bull????

---
Bickleygate holsteins

"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison
16/2/2004, 10:01 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


quote:

canuk wrote:

Storm- solid cow family, not bred for index period, the family just milks like crazy, and indexs to tend to show up for that.



Now there's a revelation!!!!
Was Aerostar not an index bull??

quote:


Durham- with his mother, comming from an E.X x G.P x G, and the fact she only gave 9330 kgs as a 2yr old, did not nessesarily make this an index breeding, beleive it only came about because of her own extreme type.



Double Bell?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:


Gibson- Jed son, does not make this an index mateing.



But what about the Cleitus and Rotate blood??

It seems that you are happy to ignore the index bulls in a pedigree when it works but blame them for everything when it doesn't.



quote:


Now of the five bulls above AAron, will have by far the most sons in A.I, and he has by FAR the worst type. Gibson will have hardly any sons at all. Now what I really do not understand, even here in Canada Arron will see very limited use, Gibson they have trouble keeping up with the demand. This makes ZERO sence to me, I think both these bulls should at the very least receive equall the number of chances to prove their worth as a sire of sons.
Storm only had about 30 sons 1/3 of which didn't turn out too bad. Rudolph had over 100 he also didn't turn out too bad, but maybe they should have tested more Storms. This basically is my arguemeant, indexs carry way too much weight, they are a tool, and only a tool, but they are the starting point for A.I's this is not how it should be. NO BULL will ever be perfact, and yes Linjet has not a perfact score in his production traits, but they are for sure survivors, aggressive, and strong, but not even one chance to prove his worth as a sire of sons, not even on the milkiest cow on the planet, how do we know we wouldn't have a well rounded bull from that sort of a mating? Thats it for me, can't be going on about this all the time, but don't like being forse fed this index crap, wish more would get outside of that tiny little box.
close minded on this I may be but still beleive BREEDING IS AN ART.




I'm not against AI companies testing Linjet or Gibson son's but at the end of the day they are in business to make money and they obviously don't think that these bulls will produce future big sellers.

Do you think there is a big market out there for Linjet sired bulls? If there is then the companies are missing out.



Last edited by MarkDay, 16/2/2004, 14:47


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16/2/2004, 14:42 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


Dear Mark - Sorry to dissapoint you, but if you would look up Storms ped you would see his mat family, are not what you would call index bred. Areostars mat family with majesty x Briarwood Cheiftain also would not normally produce a HIGH index sire. Areostar did produce more than his fair share of sons, but you must remember he had more than his fair share of chances.
Gibson is a bull who proves my point as well as any bull. TYPE SIRE (JED) crossed on an index pedigree. Just how many Jed sons turned out to be Useable? How many sons did he have? What might be out there if say there had of been 500 Jed sons, and 500 Aerostar sons, Instead of 1000 Aerostar sons and 100 Jed sons? I haven't a clue, and neither does anyone else.
Finally you ask if there is a big market out there for Linjet sons the answer is of course NO. The market for Webster sons also is a big NO, but they still give him a few chances don't they, and save this in your little file of quotes, they are a complete waste of time, in our system.
Semex with 111 sons of Inquirer, and 14 sons of Gibson, 5 years from now is it not possable to wish maybe they only had 50 sons of Inquirer, and maybe 50 of Gibson?
Just a guess but I think they will wish they only had 14 sons of Inquirer, but hopefully you get the piture.
16/2/2004, 15:56 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


Hmmmmmmm ...Storm ... AerostarX Inspiration 2 of the highest index bulls of their time in the UK .. never were regarded as type bulls.

  Funny how all the great bulls of our time are bred from index pedigrees aint it ...... but thats the way its always been ... the index bulls of today will always sire the type bulls of tommorrow

---
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16/2/2004, 19:54 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


Think you missed the part about being in a little box.
16/2/2004, 20:15 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


I would think Lindy x Prelude would be considered an index mating in 1992 emoticon2

My point Canuk is that basicly the same as Will's that virtually all the best bulls have some index in there some where but I acknowledge that a good cow family is just as important.

My view is that you breed bulls a different way than you would breed cows, I guess you would disagree with that?

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16/2/2004, 20:38 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


Linjet was an index mating, but then again lindy times prelude out of a heman didn't spell milk, not sure what genius did that one for a high milk sire...
Counselor was an index mating, funny thing is he is the only bull from that entire high index family to amount to anything and as a type sire...
Broker was the same deal, the only bull from a high index family to amount to anything and as a type sire...

Linjet and Spirit both killed by semex for low milk, both would be selling oddles of semen if avaiable now in the US. Holstein International did a piece on Linjet and how by third lactation info his milk proof was positive which I find interesting, while in an earlier article they had calculated that both rudolph and storm's milk proofs decreased as they got older. I'm sure there is reasonable demand for a Linjet son in this country. The thing to do would use a Linjet son out of a high milk PTA cow, except that the high milk PTA cows(the top 100 CTPI cows) never yield the high proven bulls. It's always more obscure cows that yield the Bellwood Marshall, Machoman type, mostly that were borderline on contract potential. Not sure why, info at the top must be skewed...

Danielle's linjet son sounds intersting...
16/2/2004, 22:07 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


Mark I see what you are saying about index bulls being the sires for tomorrows type bulls cause there is index in every pedigree. If AI studs were to cross todays type bulls with todays type cows imagine the possibilities and I believe they are Astronomical is a result of this and look what he is doing so far in the show ring.
16/2/2004, 22:11 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


Yes I do beleive they should try to prove a few more sons, as a farmer would breed cows. Index x index x index has as far as I'm concerned proven to not work. As far as Storm, & Aerostar, go like I said their maternal families were not index driven. Inspiration may have been high index in England but as a Canadian breeder never used him for that reason. As for Indiesveiw their comment on Astronomical is BANG ON what I'm talking about, why can we not have more than 1 or 2% of our young sires from matings like this. I beleive the possabilities are endless, and much more breeder freindly and interesting, than always looking at what I would call marginal type pedigrees, with marginal type bulls. 5 sons of Linjet, from a high produceing family would over here out sell by a wide margine 5 sons of Webster, from a high type family. In fact you would have a hard time selling a single dose of this period. NO BULL with daughters that avg less than 80 points, is or should ever be considered a TYPE bull, and because some unit will test 100 or 200 of his sons and two turn out ok, this is concidered progress, and can claim all type sires come from index. This is hardly rocket science, try it the other way around just a little bit it can't hurt. As far as I was aware index has only been around for a short time, history goes way back, and if you look hard enough power x power, sometimes made a milk bull. Time for me to get off this subject.
16/2/2004, 22:52 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: New Bulls


Very well put canuk.
17/2/2004, 2:08 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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