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EX95

Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
Karma: 5 (+5/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


yes it was Dave Bachmann that said animals breed to the average of there inheritance and in my experience I have also found this to be true.
21/2/2004, 5:03 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
triday1 Profile
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EX95

Registered: 12-2003
Posts: 602
Karma: 21 (+21/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


Deriving an inch measurement off a linear is wonderful in theory. Problem is the data that went into to it is a guesstimate. I have yet to see a classifer measure the actual height of a cow, or use a ruler to determine the slope from hooks to pins. It just doesn't happen and isn't superrealistic. I am not claiming to be bright, but my guess is people estimating inches of slope has a massive margin of error. So if his red book proof says high pins, he probaly has high pins, how the deriatives worked out depends on how the classifer punched in the numbers, which is why anything negative on a trait like that is kinda scary.
Classifaction is also relative to herdmates. We had big cows,(they showed succesfully at madison, so make your own judgement on their size) but almost never had a 50 in stature(which I beleive is like 59 inches). Had cows over 63 inches tall scored 45 in stature, because their herdmates were also big and they didn't stick out.
As for the bull that started the debate, remember up to 40% of the daughters in young sire proofs are misidentified, so you better let him get some more before you start using his info too religously, a lot can and will change in his proof most likely. As for the comments on bellwood sons with high type proofs. I firmly beleive if it's too good to be true, it probaly is. The last several bull runs in this country have seen the correction of type proofs of bw marshall and eland both dropping below three points, with eland hovering around 2.0 after being like 3.3. They aren't bad bulls but their pedigrees didn't indicate that they were gonna be breed leaders on type as they have added daughters the correction has occured.
21/2/2004, 6:07 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
shilt79 Profile
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VG89

Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 132
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


Couldn't agree with you more Triday. I'm not questioning how/why the system puts out the linear numbers it does. I am questioning how people are using the linears.
21/2/2004, 6:47 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Bob Profile
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Registered: 06-2003
Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
Posts: 145
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Re: New Bulls


Triday,
Wow, 40% seems extremely high. Can you authenticate this figure or is it just a wild guess? Are all AI sampled bulls this far out- or is it just in the USA or any particular stud. Where do these figures come from? USA's competitors will have an absolute field day hearing figures like this. In fact I dare say it will be all around the world already on every Semex and Holland Genetics reps lips. If this figure isn't true it is extremely damaging to your AI industry.
On another point,what has Eland got to do with Bellwood sons? We were all dubious about this breeder proven, Emory x Southwind. He never qualified for EU but really no-one in their right mind expected him to stay at that level- especially with an initial proof of 45 dtrs in 24 herds. As for BW Marshall the opposite is true- no one expected him to do that well!

Last edited by Bob, 21/2/2004, 9:31


---
Married, 2 Teenage Kids. 25 years in industry. Work for Semen World. Keep a few PI ET's.
21/2/2004, 9:28 Link to this post PM via Email
 
alan a Profile
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Ex97
Addict!


Registered: 06-2003
Location: Fermanagh
Posts: 1149
Karma: 28 (+28/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


Bob, I think you may be over estimating the level of worldwide interest in Cowtalk. Whilst it is highly informative, interesting and enjoyable, I don't think it is yet compulsory for all AI reps around the world. But, i could be wrong.

40% does seem very high though.

---
Alan Armstrong
Semex Ni Area manager

Part owner in a few cows and calves (details and contracts on request)

Also test a few bulls of our own (all orders accepted)
21/2/2004, 9:59 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Will Richardson Profile
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Ex 97 2E

Registered: 06-2003
Location: Close to a pub
Posts: 1550
Karma: 18 (+19/-1)
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Re: New Bulls


quote:

triday1 wrote:

  I have yet to see a classifer measure the actual height of a cow,




 Come to the UK the classifier turns up with a tape and some chalk ... marks lines for linears 1,3,5,7,9 on the wall
and everything that gets classified gets measured for stature at the true point the rump.


---
100 cows North East UK ... no staff employed.

8500kgs 4.30% fat 3.33% protein 82 points average on type.

Igale Masc at 87 ... living up to her genetic potential
21/2/2004, 10:30 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Gerbrich Profile
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Ex96

Registered: 07-2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 990
Karma: 22 (+22/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


In Holland every single animal that is classified is measured in cm at the rump.

---
CR Delta communications
Chief Editor of Holland Genetics Highlights Magazine
21/2/2004, 11:33 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
triday1 Profile
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EX95

Registered: 12-2003
Posts: 602
Karma: 21 (+21/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


That made me smile, I don't think my comments are gonna provide fodder for anyone as not a whole lot on these forums is taken seriously. 40% was given to me by someone who used to work for one the remaining few AI organizations. You have to remember bulls in this country are proven in large herds, as in 800-5000 cows. Well in many there can be up to 30-40 cows calve in a night. Well, different herds have different levels of management, so if those cows all calve in the same pen by morning you have one hell of a mess of calves to sort out. Most of the iding then is done by color, matching calves color to the dam, so that is the calf that belongs to that cow. As you can imagine some get misided. This is also where the calving ease data comes from, that the people swap with the companies for free semen or semen credits. From my experience, at the farm level it's done 1-5, 1 being by themselves and up to 3 being using a calf jack and mutiple men. I never saw a five but was told by a coworker it involved the payloader to pull the calf. Right then calving ease become worthless data to me.
I feel the misiding is the reason that sometimes bulls proven in a certain region of this country don't pan out on a national scale, and become disappointments. My guess is the new national id program(government level being introduced by some very powerful senators) being imposed is gonna forced tightened management and probaly take care of some of this problem. Realizing the problems of good id on a 5000 cow herd is probaly hard for the readers on this list as most seem to milk 0-200 cows. But I do feel missing out on proving bulls in these herds wastes a tremdous amount of oppurnity.
21/2/2004, 15:31 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
triday1 Profile
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EX95

Registered: 12-2003
Posts: 602
Karma: 21 (+21/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


That is impressive and commendable. How many cows are scored in Holland in a year? For that matter how many are scored in the US in a year? Anyone jump in here.
21/2/2004, 15:33 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
mmt95 Profile
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EX95

Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 605
Karma: 13 (+13/-0)
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Re: New Bulls


After pointing out to a classifyer that a cow was coded lower than another cow that was much shorter, he said, and I kid you not, "If you're within 20, it's close enough." How's that for accuracy? That is the way it is with some of the US codes.

The Milking Shorthorns have gone to a linear scale of 1 to 10, rather than 10 to 100. Breeders seem pleased with that, and think now the codes are more accurate and usable.
21/2/2004, 15:34 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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