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Will Richardson Profile
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Ex 97 2E

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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


Understand what you are saying Simon .. some of these ''middle of the road'' scored heifers, especially those calved at a young age (around 24 months), grow on and make these tremendous long lasting dairy cows we all love.

 This means we have to treat type merit with a certain degree of caution as I fail to see how it can differentiate between the bulls which leave these type of animals and those that do not.

Has anyone got any examples in their own herds of these type of bulls ???
29/7/2003, 8:55 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
mckeague Profile
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


Yep sure do have examples - Ked Juror, we had presumed from all the hype that these would be the greatest heifers ever, but they were ordinary enough as heifers, don't get me wrong they did ok, they just lacked a little body, but now as third calvers they have really come into their own and we are looking forward to the next batch calving in this Autumn (of course we won't see the real Jurors until they have another couple of calves, but i think they are worth waiting for!!)
29/7/2003, 9:10 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
simon powell Profile
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


I think we are forming a consensus here!
Some 82-83pt heifers make 82-83pt cows, some would never score that high again in their lives, and some develop on to make truly great mature cows. As sperrin points out it is almost impossible to create a system that can differentiate at first classification. Therefore type merit becomes an aid rather than the difinitive answer.

I feel very strongly that the key to sorting these animals out is the monitoring of their development.The point when you really get to know what you have got is when they calve for the second time. Hypothetical example:

cow 1, 82pt heifer, 86pt 2nd calf,
cow 2, 86pt heifer, 87pt 2nd calf,

Of course there are no hard and fast rules, but you wouldn't be too crazy to suggest that by third calf maybe cow 1 would be preferable to cow 2.( she has afterall shown 4x greater improvement in her previous lactation)
 
This only really seems to ring true at about 80pts and above. A 70pt heifer that improves to 80pt second calf for example is developing in the right direction but still has some pretty fundemental faults.

The bull that really opened my eyes to this phenomenon was Hanoverhill Stardom. They were very ordinary heifers that developed beyond our wildest dreams into great cows. They also seemed to pass this ability on in a pedigree, which made them wonderful brood cows for us.
Interestingly enough, I think he scored very highly for productive life which may be a coincidence or may mean that some part of that formula was spot on!!!!
29/7/2003, 14:37 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Bob Profile
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


This formula would also have to take into account the ones that never get scored again i.e. culls. If we only get to score the good ones in second calf or third, they will go up in type index unless there is a mechanism to compensate the formula with missing cows.
I think AI studs would find it an horrendous task to keep track of all their progeny daughters past first calf. They would have to track them through markets and sales - especially the non pedigrees. I know that Genus used to pay farmers for each daughter that made it into the proofs. The system is so vast and widespread and could be open to abuse with only selected daughters being scored again.
No one can disagree with the principal, its just the logistics that make it very difficult. At the end of the day all research shows that progeny test heifer scores against contempories by better known bulls are a great indication of whats to come and I don't know if anyone can come up with a cost effective system that covers all bases. In the meantime we may have to stick with heifer classifications accompanied by an accurate longevity score. At the moment longevity scores are mainly based on what we know about parentage (which sometimes isn't much - especially on foreign bull dams which just get given a basic maternal grandsire score) until the heifers actually get old - but by then most bulls have passed away anyway.
29/7/2003, 15:19 Link to this post PM via Email
 
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


Bob is spot on. Canada used to include later classifications, but the system didn't allow sufficiently for disappearing daughters. Also the daughters of a high profile sire get re-scored regularly, whilst the sires who didn't make it are forgotten about.

This was a large part in the Prelude crash, where his later lactation daughters had pushed his type proof to an unrealistic level. He thus became over-rated, only to come back to earth with a bump when a large number of 2 year olds entered his proof. Along with the Records in progress problem (RIPdip) it caused him to drop drastically.

Now Canada only includes the first clasification, if in first lactation. The UK is the same. Less useful for breeders who want to see what effect developement has, but also less disasters.

You can see the production proofs for bulls proven on the Test Day Model System divided up by lactation. I think the Canadian bulls are on the Canadian Dairy Network site (their equivalent of the ADC).
29/7/2003, 16:40 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
SPERRIN Profile
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


Ok this may sound stupid(and it probably is) and hard to explain but i will try my best to put my point across;

how about we keep linear proofs the same(still based on heifer classifications) which produces us the scores we get on the right hand side of the page of a uk proof, but we add another column on the right which shows the % increse/decrease in a particular trait (eg Chest width)from first to third lactation.

or you could have a combination of 2+3 lactaion proofs and4+ lactaction proofs
or you could even come up with a seperate proof!!

by doing this you should be able to easily assess not only lifespan but which factors will affect the lifespan of the animal eg pins getting higher, deeper udders etc. etc.
 
it would also be VERY interesting to see seperate production proofs for later lactations.

Last edited by SPERRIN, 29/7/2003, 17:27
29/7/2003, 17:22 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Roy MacGregor Profile
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


Used to see a bulls cull percentage, something I think is very important, wonder why they stopped??
As for Prelude, and trying not to be too pro Canadian, his proof now type+1, stature +1, f&l +5, foot angle +7, heel depth +8, rump+8, rump angle8L.
18,763 daus me avg 10,181 3.9F, 3.2P(hate me figures)
66percent G.P and better
2659 V.G & E.X, VS 786 F & P
Seems like a lot of what people are looking for.
Not all that bad for a flop, and the country side is full of old Prelude daus so his daus longgevity should'nt be all that bad either.

As for slow matureing, Triple Threat was King.
29/7/2003, 19:47 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
Roy MacGregor Profile
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


Used to see a bulls cull percentage, something I think is very important, wonder why they stopped??
As for Prelude, and trying not to be too pro Canadian, his proof now type+1, stature +1, f&l +5, foot angle +7, heel depth +8, rump+8, rump angle8L.
18,763 daus me avg 10,181 3.9F, 3.2P(hate me figures)
66percent G.P and better
2659 V.G & E.X, VS 786 F & P
Seems like a lot of what people are looking for.
Not all that bad for a flop, and the country side is full of old Prelude daus so his daus longgevity should'nt be all that bad either.

As for slow matureing, Triple Threat was King.
29/7/2003, 19:48 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
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Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


The percentage of a bulls daughters that do not calve in for a second time (for whatever reason) is a very informative figure. This is REAL lifespan information!!!!!!!

As for Prelude, he is a bull most people would be happy to see appearing in a pedigree, and I think you have just summed up why, Roy.

B/fat is another reason Prelude may have the last laugh.
29/7/2003, 22:03 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 
DLC 1 Profile
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VG88

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posticon Re: Type merit Vs Lifespan


Well some very interesting views have endorsed my thoughts really that no one can answer the question easily - I am really glad about that because that is why we are breeding these cows.
I would love to know of any correlation, wouldn't you?!
30/7/2003, 21:09 Link to this post PM via Email   PM via Forum
 


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